joelstrumpet

I'm not sure if any of you have seen the small exchange between Pastor_chris and I on the blog, but I wanted to throw this out for discussion.

Do you feel as though Satan will be cast out of heaven after 3 1/2 years into the tribulation, or has Satan already been cast out of heaven at the time of Jesus' first coming?

This was my initial thoughts I posed to Pastor_chris. I believe Satan has already been cast out of heaven...

Pastor_chris,

This may put a wrinkle in your analysis, but if your getting your understanding that Satan is cast out of heaven from Revelation 12, you may want to go back and re-read that set of scripture. I think you’ll be surprised to find out when that event actually occurs.

Immediately after John sees the vision of Satan being hurled down at the end of verse 9, John records what he hears:

10Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
“Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God,

When did salvation come to the earth? At the time of Jesus’ resurrection.

and the authority of his Christ.

When did the authority of Christ come? At the time of Jesus’ resurrection.

For the accuser of our brothers,
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.

Here we get confirmation of the timing of the “casting out” of Satan.

11They overcame him
by the blood of the Lamb

When did we become “overcomers” by the blood of the Lamb? At the time of Jesus’ resurrection.

I can back all of those up with scripture:

For example,

1 John 5:5 - 5Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

Just something to think about…

Pastor_chris Says:
June 19th, 2008 at 11:13 pm

Rev.12:6 tells us that the woman (Israel) will be nourished in the wilderness for 1260 days….that is 3 and 1/2 years….this is a clear indication that these events happen during the final half of Daniel’s 70th week. So it would seem that Satan is cast down during the last half of the tribulation.

Perdonado Says:
June 20th, 2008 at 3:50 am

Pastor_chris,

Are you saying that verses 1 through 5 aren’t describing the events of Jesus’ first coming, culminating in His ascension into heaven in verse 5?

I know this discussion is off-topic from the article that was posted and we shouldn’t debate this topic here, but I really couldn’t resist…

Perdonado,

I left a lengthy reply yesterday but it got lost in cyber-space.UGHHHH!! Anyways I have one question for you. What do the 1260 days represent? I believe they are the last half of the 70th week of Daniel. If they are your interpetation is very problematic.

Define the 1260 days in the 12th chapter or REv and we can go from there.

Blessings,

Chris

Chris,

A tip on lengthy replies:

I don't trust whether or not this "free" forum will actually submit or not, so I usually copy the contents of the post reply over to notepad in case something goes wrong with the submission.

I'll answer your reply in a minute.

Chris,

I can understand that verse 6 seems to fall in line with the common pre-mill interpretations, and does seem to give the interpretations that I have re-stated some difficulty, but does it really?

I will pose a suggestion to you for the interpretation of verse 6 and the 1260 days, but I would hope that you would likewise return the favor and answer my questions back to you at the end of this post. Deal?

Let's first start out by summarizing the verses in the chapter. We have already agreed on the foundation that is laid out before us in the first five verses, Christ's birth up to the point of His ascension into heaven. Now we come to verse 6, the verse that I'll expand on in a minute. Immediately following verse 6 we read of the war in heaven between Michael and Satan. But Satan is hurled out of heaven and so we come to the proclamation of what just took place starting in verse 10. An event just occurred to "seal the deal" of sending Satan down to earth. What was it? The Christ has now received His authority, His rule over Satan and his fallen angels.

1 Peter 3:22 – “(Jesus Christ) who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.”

We see at the time that authority was given to Christ, the second part of verse 10 says that Satan was hurled down. It was the "blood of the Lamb" that allows us to overcome Satan.

1 John 5:5 - 5Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

Again, we read in verse 12 and 13 that Satan has been sent down to earth. Satan then pursues the "woman" (Israel) for giving birth to "the male child" (Jesus). Here we have the time of 1260 days or a time, times and half a time that the "woman" (Israel) is protected. We next read how Satan spews out his water like a river to overtake the "woman" (Israel) to overtake her, but the earth swallowed up this "water". This "water" is the lying deception, delusions, religious-isms that the world so readily soaks up. But, Israel is not fooled. So, who does the devil turn to? We see in the final verse that it is Christians (those that hold to the testimony of Jesus) that are the focus of Satan's attacks.

Can you honestly say that Satan doesn't attempt to attack Christians today, or is this something that we will wait to endure at the last 3 1/2 years of the tribulation?

So that is a brief synopsis of the meaning of the chapter. So how do we reconcile the meaning of, not only verse 6, but verse 14 as well?

Here is a possibility?

John is writing this revelation to not only be a prophetic timeline of events that will transpire in the end times, but also to encourage the 1st century Christians. In doing so, John would need to place symbolism in terms that is easily understandable to those early readers. I'm sure all of the early Christians would know the stories of Moses and the exodus from Egypt and how God brought them out through the desert...

Exodus 19:3-4 - 3 Then Moses went up to God, and the LORD called to him from the mountain and said, "This is what you are to say to the house of Jacob and what you are to tell the people of Israel: 4 'You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles' wings and brought you to myself.

Or, what about this song of Moses that was recited to remind Israelites of future generations of the mistakes that they had made?

Deuteronomy 32:10-11
10 In a desert land he found him,
in a barren and howling waste.
He shielded him and cared for him;
he guarded him as the apple of his eye,

11 like an eagle that stirs up its nest
and hovers over its young,
that spreads its wings to catch them
and carries them on its pinions.

Or, what about these words of comfort that Isaiah gave to the Israelites that speak of the events after the time of captivity in Babylon?

Isaiah 40:31 -
31 but those who hope in the LORD
will renew their strength.
They will soar on wings like eagles;
they will run and not grow weary,
they will walk and not be faint.

This imagery of soaring away on eagles wings for God's protection was something that was familiar to the early Christians. But, that still doesn't answer the timing issue. What possible meaning would this 3 1/2 years (1260 days) have that would encourage the 1st century Christians that were undergoing extreme persecution during their time? There was a period of 3 1/2 years in the Old Testament times in which God's people could never forget. It was a period of affliction and tribulation, but it was also a period that the power of God's Word was exhibited. Remember the story of Ahab and Elijah (1 Kings 17 and 18 )? After Elijah prophesied against Ahab concerning the drought, did God provide for Elijah? Yes. Did Ahab search diligently for Elijah but couldn't find him? Yes. Was God protecting His church? Yes.

1 Kings 18:10,13 - 10 As surely as the LORD your God lives, there is not a nation or kingdom where my master (Ahab) has not sent someone to look for you. And whenever a nation or kingdom claimed you were not there, he made them swear they could not find you.

13 Haven't you heard, my lord, what I did while Jezebel was killing the prophets of the LORD? I hid a hundred of the LORD's prophets in two caves, fifty in each, and supplied them with food and water.

How long did this time of affliction last? 1260 days, 3 1/2 years, or a time, times and half a time...

James 5:17 - Elijah was a man just like us. He prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the land for three and a half years.

When you look at the unfolding of the vision from John's eyes, what do you see that he was thinking of? Could it be Ahab and Elijah?

God protected His believers during that 3 1/2 years...

1 Kings 18:3-4 - 3 ...(Obadiah was a devout believer in the LORD. 4 While Jezebel was killing off the LORD's prophets, Obadiah had taken a hundred prophets and hidden them in two caves, fifty in each, and had supplied them with food and water.)

God's told Elijah that he protected and saved off a remnant of Israel.

1 Kings 19:18 - 18 Yet I reserve seven thousand in Israel—all whose knees have not bowed down to Baal and all whose mouths have not kissed him.

God supernaturally provided for Elijah during this time...

1 Kings 17:4,9 - 4 You will drink from the brook, and I have ordered the ravens to feed you there.

9 "Go at once to Zarephath of Sidon and stay there. I have commanded a widow in that place to supply you with food."

===========================================================

Can you please answer for me the following after you reply to the possibility I described above?

1). Do the verses after verse 6 relate to events after the first 3 1/2 years of the tribulation?

2). Do you think we jump from the ascension of Jesus in verse 5 to the end of the tribulation in verse 6 and progress in time from there?

3). When does the authority of Christ come, our salvation, our ability to overcome this world by the blood of Christ? Is it at the end of the tribulation? If it is at the time of the death and resurrection of Christ then you have some explaining to do to deal with the timing of when Satan is hurled down at the end of verse 10.

4). Can you honestly say that Satan doesn't attempt to attack Christians today, or is this something that we will wait to endure at the last 3 1/2 years of the tribulation?

5). Where is there a verse in the New Testament that mentions Satan in heaven accusing the brethren?

Perdonado,
If I might interject, I agree with you that salvation came at the moment that Christ died for our sins. But to me the text implies something more, a literal (I know you love that word ) kingdom and authority of Christ.

Revelation 12:10Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
"Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Christ.
For the accuser of our brothers,
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.
11They overcame him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much
as to shrink from death.

We don't hear about the first Christian martyr until Acts 7 with the stoning of Stephen, which was at least a week after Christ's resurrection, but the verse says "they", implying more than Stephen. When was satan cast out if not after that?

Socks,

Thanks for jumping in.

You know I love the word literal. So, let's look at the verse in question literally...

If you are to take the verse literally, then by definition, you have to take the primary meaning of the verse. You can't jump to "something implied"!

And beside that, when was this revelation given? Was it prior to, or after the time period that much persecution had taken place? We know the answer to that question. John received this revelation around 95 or 96 AD. The revelation was given to give the 1st century persecuted believers encouragement because so many were losing their lives for their testimony and belief in Christ. There is no way around that socks. Verse 11 was not written prior to the first martyrdom for Christ.

Who is it that overcomes? Who is it that are more than conquerors?

Are you truly saying that Christ has not already received His authority? I guess we can just disregard the verse I quoted above from 1 Peter 3:22.

Are you disagreeing about the timing that Christ receives His authority in verse 10?

Do you think that the verses 13-17 are pointing to a future time? Has Satan not gone after and attacked, "pursued the woman", Israel? Has Satan not gone after and attacked Christians?

Where is there a verse in the New Testament that mentions Satan in heaven accusing the brethren?

Sorry for so many questions, but your statement truly baffles me...

Perdonado,

but your statement truly baffles me...

I agree with you on this point and that's a start! just kidding...

Revelation 12:10Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
"Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Christ.
For the accuser of our brothers,
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.
11They overcame him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much
as to shrink from death.

My point is this, the accuser of our brothers (Christians) was hurled down. They overcame him by the blood of the lamb (before the resurrection? clearly not) and they were martyred for His name, again after the resurrection. If you place:

the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ

as happening at the exact moment as the resurrection, then who is accusing the Christians in heaven?

socks,

You didn't read my posts very carefully did you?

I have NEVER, EVER stated that any of this happened BEFORE the resurrection.

You didn't read my second post in this thread, did you? You didn't read 1 Peter 3:22 did you? You couldn't have if you made a statement like "They overcame him by the blood of the lamb (before the resurrection? clearly not) and they were martyred for His name, again after the resurrection."

And, by the way, Jesus is reigning over a kingdom right now. (It's a part of the Davidic Covenant). You can't deny what the Bible says...

Colossians 1:13-14 – “13 For he has rescued us (gentiles) from the dominion of darkness and brought (PAST TENSE) us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.”

Ephesians 1:18-23 – “18 I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, 20 which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, (RESURRECTION) 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. (AUTHORITY) 22 And God placed (PAST TENSE) all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, (AUTHORITY) 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

1 Corinthians 15:22-26 – “22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.”

Oops, it looks like the Bible tells us that Jesus is already reigning...


You refuse to answer my questions, but I go to great lengths to answer your questions and concerns. Please do me the honor and answer my questions.


Your question: "who is accusing the Christians in heaven?" The answer: Nobody!!!

I'll make is very simple for you. Answer this one question: Where is there a verse in the New Testament that mentions Satan in heaven accusing the brethren?

I'll make is very simple for you. Answer this one question: Where is there a verse in the New Testament that mentions Satan in heaven accusing the brethren?

This one:

For the accuser of our brothers,
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.

Simple enough for you?

I guess I kinda got what I asked for now didn't I.

But, Nope. Let's look at the verse literally.

It says that he was hurled down. It doesn't say that he was in the act accusing anyone as he did with Job or Joshua.

I think I've already addressed the timing that Satan was cast out... You even agreed that it was at the time of Christ coming into His authority, the time that He secured a way for our salvation. (That was the sentence just before the verse you quoted.)

Now, will you answer the other questions:

Who is it that overcomes? Who is it that are more than conquerors?

Are you truly saying that Christ has not already received His authority? I guess we can just disregard the verse I quoted above from 1 Peter 3:22.

Are you disagreeing about the timing that Christ receives His authority in verse 10?

Do you think that the verses 13-17 are pointing to a future time? Has Satan not gone after and attacked, "pursued the woman", Israel? Has Satan not gone after and attacked Christians?

Socks,

Why is it such a problem if Satan has already been cast out of heaven?

Does it change the way you interpret eschatology?

Is there some other issue that would keep you from wanting to believe that the event has already happened?

Perdonado,

It's not an issue to me one way or the other really. And I agree with your arguments so far in regards to the authority and salvation of Christ. I guess the issue I have, and maybe it's just my own interpretation, is that I always assumed the "brothers" being accused were Christians.

For the accuser of our brothers,
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.

And therefore the martyrs, would be Christian martyrs as well:

11They overcame him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much
as to shrink from death.

Which is what the text seems to mean. But if satan is cast down at the moment of Christ's resurrection, then all the accusing and martyrdom would have to refer to those who were true followers of God before Christ even came. Is this what you are saying the verses mean?

I'm not sure I agree with your interpretation of the time times etc. though.

5She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

I'm assuming you place the words I've put in bold to be the same event as verse 10? To me it seems there's a gap there, implying ("meaning" dude ) that these are different events. Where do you suppose Israel was taken care of for this time, times, etc.? Throughout world history has there ever been a time when Israel was safe and taken care of? Certainly not in the desert under the watchful eye of the Muzzie folk.

I've read a reference to the Israelites escaping to some place in Jordan (which is in the desert) but I can't recall the reference or biblical name of the place. I'll have to research it and get back to you.

Socks,

The reason I ask whether or not it make a difference is because to me it goes a long way in explaining the timing of Revelation 20.

Perdonado,

Here's a verse from Micah 2:

12I will surely assemble, O Jacob, all of thee; I will surely gather the remnant of Israel; I will put them together as the sheep of Bozrah, as the flock in the midst of their fold: they shall make great noise by reason of the multitude of men.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bozrah This link says it's in Jordan, and I believe that the place in the wilderness where the Israelites will be safe will be here. So yeah I think that part is referring to the tribulation.

How do you place the timing of Revelation 20 in chapter 12?

Socks,

It sure looks like Rev. 20:1-3 are speaking of the same war in heaven (Michael/the angel) and Satan being hurled, or cast, out...

Revelation 20:1-3 - 1And I saw an angel (Michael???) coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

Michael is always the angel of God that battles Satan...

If that is that case, verses 1-3 would set the foundation for the timing of the rest of the verses in Rev. 20. This has a profound impact on whether or not a person is pre-mill or a-mill...

Perdonado,

In my opinion these are two different events. The first one has satan being kicked out of heaven, this one has the angel coming down from heaven (sure, could be Michael) and binding satan. There is still a lot that transpires between the two. For example in Revelation 12:

13And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

Socks,

So you are in agreement that Satan has already gone after the woman (Israel)? Rev. 12:13

Perdonado,

I'm not sure that it has happened yet, and I think it's future. If it has already happened, how would you explain this:

15Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.

I think the times time and half a time are the same as in Daniel 12 with the 1290 and 1335 days.

4The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent's reach.

I think the Philistines are going to have control of all Israel at the end, and the Israelites will be in Jordan.

Socks,

I've already answered that in the above post at Wed Jun 25, 2008 3:03 pm



If you want, I'll post it again...

Socks,

You said:

I'm not sure that it has happened yet, and I think it's future. If it has already happened, how would you explain this:
Quote:
15Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.
I think the times time and half a time are the same as in Daniel 12 with the 1290 and 1335 days.

You've got to be kidding me, right?

Are you seriously saying that Satan has not attacked "the woman" Israel yet? What about Satan's attacks on Christians that we see as "the offspring" of the woman - those who hold to the testimony of Jesus in verse 15? Are you neglecting all of the scriptures in the Bible warning Christians about Satan?

Peter wrote in 1 Peter 5:8 that “the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour”.

Or, we see Satan at work when an immoral Christian is handed over to Satan in 1 Corinthians 5:5.

Or, we read in 1 Corinthians 7:5 that Satan seems to have the power to influence believers.

Maybe none of that has actually happened yet... All of these verses from Rev. 12 must be in the future to fit into your interpretation based on Daniel 12...

Perdonado,

We seem to have some miscommunication here, maybe I'm not explaining it properly? I wonder what you read when I put out my arguments.

Are you seriously saying that Satan has not attacked "the woman" Israel yet?

That's right out of left field. What I said is this: You say all this is history, then show me in history where this has happened:

15Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.

Of course it could be symbolic of some event, but show me where in history this specific event happened. I doubt you can, because it hasn't happened yet. I doubt even more you can show me when this happened:

14The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent's reach

Israel has been under satan's attack ever since they became the people that God chose to bring his plan of salvation to the world. When have they ever had peace in the desert?

Maybe none of that has actually happened yet... All of these verses from Rev. 12 must be in the future to fit into your interpretation based on Daniel 12...

That's simply not true. I've gotten into quite heated debates on this forum because I expect all of the bible to be true. Jesus spoke and the entire universe leapt into being! Every natural law that we know was created by him in that moment. Even before this he created logic, rational thought, intelligence, etc. So why do people think that some parts of the bible are wrong? If he knew enough to put everything in its place (and I myself believe that is down to the very smallest part of every single atom), then how could he be wrong about the very word he gave us to live by? It all has to make sense. Every last word. So tell me when has this happened?

14The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent's reach

I'll answer your next argument so that we don't have to go through that. She wasn't actually given the wings of an eagle. That's an anthropomorphism which in this case means the woman was able to escape the serpents reach quickly. But tell me where she went in the desert for time, times and half a time?

Socks,

I'll tell you why I asked: "Are you seriously saying that Satan has not attacked "the woman" Israel yet?"

I asked the question:

Socks,

So you are in agreement that Satan has already gone after the woman (Israel)? Rev. 12:13

Your response:

Perdonado,

I'm not sure that it has happened yet, and I think it's future. If it has already happened, how would you explain this:

Quote:
15Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.

I think the times time and half a time are the same as in Daniel 12 with the 1290 and 1335 days.

And you still wonder what I read in your arguments?

My comment didn't come "out of left field".

Socks,

You said:

What I said is this: You say all this is history, then show me in history where this has happened:

Quote:
15Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.

Of course it could be symbolic of some event, but show me where in history this specific event happened. I doubt you can, because it hasn't happened yet.

I'll give you an example: It is called ISLAM!!!

Since you obviously didn't go back and re-read my earlier post, I'll repost it...

We next read how Satan spews out his water like a river to overtake the "woman" (Israel) to overtake her, but the earth swallowed up this "water". This "water" is the lying deception, delusions, religious-isms that the world so readily soaks up. But, Israel is not fooled.

Did Satan come up with a competing religion (ISLAM) to create the delusion that the Jew's have corrupted the Bible and that the Qur'an was sent as correction of the previous revelation of the Bible?

On Correction:

Surah 3:2 (Yusuf Ali 3:3) “In truth hath He sent down to thee ‘the Book,’ which confirmeth those which precede it: For He had sent down the Law (Torah/Tawrut), and the Evangel (Injil) aforetime, as man’s Guidance; and now hath He sent down the ‘Illumination.’”

Surah 5:52 “And to thee we have sent down the Book of the Koran with truth, confirmatory of previous Scriptures, and their safeguard.”

Surah 10:38 (Yusuf Ali 10:37) “Moreover this Koran could not have been devised by any but God: but it confirmeth what was revealed before it, and is a clearing up of the Scriptures – there is no doubt thereof – from the Lord of all creatures.”

On Corruption:

Surah 2:70 (Yusuf Ali 2:75) “Desire ye then that for your sakes the Jews should believe? Yet a part of them heard the word of God, and then, after they had understood it, perverted it, and knew that they did so.”

Surah 4:48 (Yusuf Ali 4:47) “Among the Jews are those who displace the words of their scriptures, and say, ‘We have heard, and we have not obeyed’.”

I can give more if you like...

What about the attempts of Satan via ISLAM to persecute and/or wipe out "the woman" Israel? Here is one specific example, and the earliest, of how the Devil himself by way of Islam attempted to overtake "the woman".

Muhammad made his pilgrimage to Medina in 622 AD. He was invited by leaders of Medina to come and lead their city. Some of the delegates from Medina were Jews that had heard of Muhammad and thought he could possibly be the Messiah.

Muhammad migrated to Media, and the Jews became disillusioned with him. They realized he could not be the Messiah. He was from the line of Ishmael. Muhammad entered into an agreement with the local Jews and Christians, but when they didn’t eventually convert to Islam, in 627 AD he turned to the sword. He massacred the Jewish tribes located in Medina. The Jews never put up a fight.

Ibn Ishaq describes the killing of the Banu Qurayza men as follows:

“Then they surrendered, and the apostle confined them in Medina in the quarter of d. al-Harith, a woman of B. al-Najjar. Then the apostle went out to the market of Medina (which is still its market today) and dug trenches in it. Then he sent for them and struck off their heads in those trenches as they were brought out to him in batches. Among them was the enemy of Allah Huyayy b. Akhtab and Ka`b b. Asad their chief. There were 600 or 700 in all, though some put the figure as high as 800 or 900. As they were being taken out in batches to the apostle they asked Ka`b what he thought would be done with them. He replied, 'Will you never understand? Don't you see that the summoner never stops and those who are taken away do not return? By Allah it is death!' This went on until the apostle made an end of them. Huyayy was brought out wearing a flowered robe in which he had made holes about the size of the finger-tips in every part so that it should not be taken from him as spoil, with his hands bound to his neck by a rope. When he saw the apostle he said, 'By God, I do not blame myself for opposing you, but he who forsakes God will be forsaken.' Then he went to the men and said, 'God's command is right. A book and a decree, and massacre have been written against the Sons of Israel.' Then he sat down and his head was struck off.

Was the Qur'an not spewed out of the mouth of the devil himself to overtake "the woman" and sweep her away with the torrent?

Wasn't there someone in the earth that readily soaked up this venomous spewing of Satan (to the tune of 1.7 billion Muslims)?

Did Israel give in? NO!!! Was Israel fooled by this satanic religion? NO!!!

NOW YOUR TURN...
Can you describe for me the exact future event verse 15 is discussing? I know that you can't.
What event are you waiting for?
How will you know it when it happens?
Are you waiting for the earth to grow an actual mouth that swallows up an actual river that is somehow spewed out of a spiritual being's (Satan's) mouth?

I can go on and on about how the satanic religion of Islam has attempted in history to overtake "the woman", and then turn on Christianity. But, then again, we know that Islam is not the only vehicle that Satan has used to attack Israel (the Jews) or gone after Christianity. It is happening every day!!!!!!!!

Socks,

Now to your next point...

You said:

Israel has been under satan's attack ever since they became the people that God chose to bring his plan of salvation to the world. When have they ever had peace in the desert?

Again, go back and re-read my earlier posts...

This whole verse 14:

14The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent's reach

... deals with imagery that the persecuted early Christians could understand to give them encouragement, hope, and an effective way to communicate that God was able to provide protection to them.

Wings of Eagles/Being taken care of in a desert or desert like conditions:
Exodus 19:3-4, Deuteronomy 32:10-11, Isaiah 40:31, James 5:17, 1 Kings 17:4,9