joelstrumpet

I just got done reading Joel's book "Antichrist" and Joel/Walid's book "God's war on terror". My head is now spinning a bit.....

After reading these works, it seems to me that all prophesies have been fulfilled up to the peace treaty signing between Israel/Antichrist..... is there anything else we are waiting for before this can happen? (lets bypass the pre/mid/post rapture topic....)

Does anyone have a simple prophetic timeline put together based on the middle-eastern viewpoint? that would really help me.

Signed... ignorant western Christian waiting for Babylon to be rebuilt.....

Future time line:

1. The revealing of the Ark of the Covenant.
2. Resolution passed by the UN Security Council establishing the 7 year covenant.
3. The AC and “many” other Muslims confirm the covenant.
4. The building of the third temple.
5. Sacrifices and offerings begin.
6. Later in the first half the AC proclaims to be God and ends sacrifices.
7. Rapture.
8. “Sudden destruction” begins the day of the Lord.
9. Image of the AC set up and the mark of the beast implemented.
10. Second Coming at the end of the second half.

Sorry tweety I am new here and don't want to be disagreeable but can I provide a different persective.

Firstly there are a number of serious problems with that timeline but for brevities sake I will only address Point 3.

I find this aspect bordering on blasphemy and for good reason.

Saying The AC and “many” other Muslims confirm the covenant is stealing the glory from the finished work of Jesus Christ.

You are refering to Daniel 9:27

"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:"
Who is the he?
Read the passage and simple comprehension comes into play. The same literary rules taught at primary school.

"...from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks:"

That is 7 weeks or 49 years + 62 weeks or 434 years = 69 weeks or 483 day years then Messiah comes which he did commencing His ministry being annointed at his baptism.

We are the told

"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself" He was cut off for others. You and me us sinners and the lost house of Israel.

"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate..."

Jesus confirmed the covenant or another word is testament, He confirmed the New Testament or New Covenant.
This was the answer to Daniels prayer at the beginning of Daniel 9.

In the middle of confirming the covenant Jesus made the sacrifice and oblation to cease by his atoning death aka consider the tearing of the veil in the temple "it is finished" what was? Daniel 9:24

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

Who performed all the items I have listed in bold here?

Please show me ONE scriptural example of God being inconsistent in his numbering and declarations on prophetical time.
God is not the author of confusion.
Examine Leviticus 25:8, Numbers 14:33-35, Ezekiel 4:4-5 and also Daniel 9:2 refering to Jeremiah's

Precedent stands that in every occassion leading up to this prophecy, every time detailed prophecy is consecutive time.
There is not one precedent in scripture before or after Daniel 9 that justifies making a 2000+ year leap in a consecutive reference.

Daniel 9:27 (New International Version)
27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.

The same person does all the above, the antecedent of “him” at the end of the verse is the person who sets up an abomination in temple, puts an end to sacrifice and confirms the covenant. Jesus did not fulfill any of the above. He did not set up an abomination in the temple, he did not confirm a 7 year covenant and desolations were not poured out him until the end.

The covenant by the Antichrist is 7 years, the new covenant signed by the blood of Christ is still effective after almost 2,000 years.

Daniel 26b
“The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary”

The person who confirms the 7 year covenant and sets up the abomination is the ruler of the people who destroy the city and the sanctuary. If the ruler is Jesus then the Jews would have destoyed their city and their holy temple. Of course history tells us it was the Romans under Titus who destroyed the city and temple.

There is not just one person spoken of here firstly and if that be so it is Jesus Christ, for who else is messiah?
There are two people disscussed here.
The second is an interjection, a by the way inside the continuty of the text.
This interjection breaks from the body of the message but is related to it.

Remove the verse divisions and you can see the break in continuity of thought (in language not time aka gap theory)

"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:"

The aside note is the portion unbolded.

This aside is akin to Jesus dialogue on the destruction of the temple in Matthew 24:15

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The prince that should come was the very prince that destroyed Jerusalem and the temple aka sanctuary, namely Prince Titus who later became emperor.

Jesus gave a sign to christians to warn them to flee.
The history behind this is Titus surrounded the city 3 years prior and then left the seiged city, the christians saw the sign and left only to have Titus return and destroy the city after the christians fled.

Jesus gives us another heads up, this is the point where great tribulation begins.
Great does not just mean intensity, it can also mean duration and how encompassing a thing can be.

We have been in Great Tribulation since 70 AD.

You are waiting for a 7 year covenant that has alreay been completed. As I said in my last post Jesus sealed up the prophecy aka why He had to open the seals in Revelation. Jesus confirmed the New Covenant with us in His blood aka midst of the week he was CUT off. Look at the Hebrew for cut when one makes a covenant one cuts a covenant. It involves blood.
Jesus ended the need for animal sacrifices and oblations. Christ died Once For All.
But wait theres more ... even though Jesus was cut off in the midst of the week aka 3.5 prophetical day years we were told by the text that He would confirm the covenant with many for one week.
What was the confirmation? The outpouring of the Holy Spirit on all flesh aka all peoples Jew and Gentile.
When the Gentiles recieved the Spirit then the week was completed. How long was it from Christ's death to Peters vision that led to the salvation and "confirmation" by the Holy Spirit's outpouring on Cornelius and his household? The Word of God is precise and sharper than any two edged sword.

What do traditional Catholic and Anglican churches do but perform "confirmation". Wether you agree with that practice or not is a non issue. We understand its meaning.

"..and on the wing of a temple.." talk about making translations into an interpretation. They have deliberately obscured the transition in language. When in doubt go to original language.
Please be careful in regards to your use of the NIV. All modern translations have an agenda to eventually knit all apostate Christendom together and as clearly seen in numerous examples I can show you, they are about demoting Jesus to prophet, removing the concept of preservation of Gods Word and introducing the Christians back to the mysteries.
Occultist Alice Bailey said the Church would be the vessel through which the New World Order would be set up.

Historical interpretation of prophecy results in confusion and distortion of the truth, I have no time for it.

Titus was Emperor 89-91, when he destroyed Jerusalem 70 AD he was a general in the Roman army. So much for your flawed “prince” interpretation. Look in up so you know your history, historicist.

Keeping this amicable, Historical revisionism is quite popular today, please don't practice it.
It is clear Titus according to history was a crown prince. The Jewish Encyclopedia, Ancient Warefare magazine etc etc all call him a crown prince prior to becoming emperor.

I am amazed you deny the historical veracity of Titus a son of Titus Flavius Vespasianus who was Emperor during 69-79 AD.
Titus thence was a Prince from 69 AD and was A PRINCE during the destruction of Jerusalem vindicating Biblical Prophecy as a truely perfect and God inspired fact.

If you are born to an emperor then you are a prince.
I see I am not going to have an intelligent discussion here if I have to trifle upon clear facts of history and simple issues of succession.

What about the other points I made regarding the biblical text which is incredibly important to our faith. You have mentioned nothing about that.
Have I said anything that makes any sense?

Daniel prays for the redemption of his people, he is answered by Gabriel the same angel who speaks to Mary because he is the special messenger of this good news. Daniel's prayer is answered in a far greater way than he realised. He wanted his people delivered from Babylonian captivity according to the times of Jeremiah the prophet and made confession regarding their sins. A great prayer indeed. God answered more than just the issue of captivity, he addressed Daniels confession of sin.
That is the subject of the 70 weeks prophecy.
It's about Messiah not anti christ and that is why I say it borders upon blasphemy.

I used to be a pre trib, rapture, futurist believer myself. When I first heard differing views I was unable to understand them, and felt terribly threatened by them.
Over time God gave me eyes to see that I had been lied to and that most of Christianity today is lied to.

If our God IS GOD then He has to be a God of All Time not just a god 2000 years ago and will be again shortly.

I find futurism shear arrogant in it's assuption that a Laodecian 21st Century church can escape some coming torment, while greater saints through the early church and the reformation suffered more than we may be willing to bare ourselves and yet were not plucked from their testing and trial.
Whilst we lazy, fat, westerners who dare to call ourselves christian expect some escape, whilst entertaining ourselves to death ie: TV, internet, games, pleasures etc, and allowing "professional" christians to tell us what is truth and how to understand scripture whilst they are occultists themselves, and I have evidence to prove so.
Biblical precedent does not tell us of escape but judgement for our unfaithfulnes to our Lord and Saviour the last 100 years.
Sounds more like the hissing of false prophets speaking soft words to our demise.

What makes us so much better than the saints who are under the altar, beheaded for the word of God (Islam beheading or French Revolution beheading? And more to come.)
Why did they suffer and yet they are not important enough for God to mention in His Word?

If you have any response please keep it related the the text of Daniel 9 because that's what's important and that should be what we nail down.

What about the other points I made regarding the biblical text which is incredibly important to our faith. You have mentioned nothing about that.
Have I said anything that makes any sense?

No you have not!

I used to be a pre trib, rapture, futurist believer myself. When I first heard differing views I was unable to understand them, and felt terribly threatened by them.
Over time God gave me eyes to see that I had been lied to and that most of Christianity today is lied to.

No, Satan has miss led you.

Okay, if Satan has misled me then provide arguements that make it clear that it is so.

You have not done this so far, regarding what I have said, but rather have made short quips to arrest discussion.

If, as you say, I have not made sense, please outline how, what and why my words are nonsense, and more important in my opinion why the words of God are nonsense.
For if I do not speak His words then I am a liar.

Proof please....

PS: What about Prince Titus ... are the facts of history nonsense?

What have I said that is nonsense, more than a quote, give a reason why it is.

Having only joined the forum today after reading Antichrist Islam's Awaited Messiah, so I just picked up on the thread between Tweety & Christiananarchist. I can relate to both contributors as I too was a Furturist albeit unwittingly, from when I first professed faith in 1979. It was only after going to Bible College 2 years later that I learned there are alternate schools of eschatology.

I think it is a weakness of Joel's book that he makes no reference to other schools of prophecy & does not state to which he would adhere though he appears to be a Fururist. Nor does he mention the Reformation, the greatest move of God since Apostolic times, or the Counter Reformation/Council of Trent from which was spawned Futurism and which was devised by Jesuits to deceive Protestants-with much success.

This leads to another weakness in the book, that MYSTERY BABLYLON is not addressed apart from a mere mention in the Appendix. Surely it is of vital importance to acknowledge that the True Church has always viewed Rome/the Office of the Papacy as the Antichrist and that Fururtism is still a novelty?

This leads to a third weakness, the omission of the fact that the Reformed have long viewed Islam as the False Prophet rather than the Antichrist. EB Elliot covered this in his Horae Apocalypticae or Hours in the Apocalypse.

Nor is the Myserty of Iniquity (2 Thess.2:7) addressed. Here it is stated that it doth already work. Most believe that the Mystery of Iniquity is synonymous with Mystery Babylon, and Paul tells us that in Apostolic times this was already at work. Clearly Islam was then only a thought in Satan's mind?

This cannot be said if Rome is in view. it is clear that Rome is described in Revelation as Mystery Babylon and that Satan transferred his seat to Rome (via Pergamos, "Satan's Seat" Rev. 2:13) when Babylon fell. Romanism is apostasy within the professing church; Islam is not and this is a requirement of the prophecies.

My own view is that there is a demonic 'trinity' just as there is a Holy Trinity, alluded to in Rev.16:13 as 3 unclean spirits proceeding from the mouths of the Dragon (Antichrist-Rome), the Beast (revived Roman Empire) & the False Prophet (Islam). Hence Rome & Islam are not mutually exclusive as candidates, rather they are Satan's mockery of the Triune Godhead who will evidently work together in the Last Days.

I welcome any comments or correction.

oh how we ignore the scriptures. No mention is made of Roman in Daniel 2 but we assume that the empires that come against Israel are the same empires in Daniel 2. We have to read other chapters of Daniel to come to an understanding of who the first three segments of the statue represents. Segments four and five are not revealed but belong to this present time and Jeremiah 50-51 provides some clues as to who they might be.

Daniel 8 tells us of the Mede and Persian and also of the Greeks and our history tells us that those that had dominion over Babylon were the chaldeans, the Medes and the Persians and then the Greeks followed. We are not given any other clues. We need to look at Jeremiah 50:39 carefully and there we will see that Babylon will be desolate for around 2,000 years and history confirms this understanding as the "early" Greeks dismantled the Buildings of Babylon and scattered the people before the later Greeks, the Roman Empire marched through the area that was Babylon and found no people to have dominion over in what was once Babylon.

Daniel 8 tells us that the gentiles will trample the sanctuary for 2,300 years and the Greek empires that have flowed since that time have been the domain of one of the beasts of Daniel 7 and the Roman Empire was influenced by this same "Greek" Beast.

The Prophet Joel recorded that the 70 CE disbursment of the Jews was accomplied at the hands of the Greeks as they brought the slave from Israel.

Now Daniel 9 :24-27, in my view contains four very distinct and seperate prophecies. and that they are broken down like this: -

1: - 24 "Seventy weeks of years are decreed concerning your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.

2: - 25 Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time. 26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off, and shall have nothing;

3:- and the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war; desolations are decreed.

4:- 27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week; and for half of the week he shall cause sacrifice and offering to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator."

Puting in place a timeline for these four seperate prophecies requires a reading of the OT from Exodus to Malachi and if we are observent we will see a 2,000 year period where the Promised land will be devasted and desolate. In Daniel 7 and 12 there are hints that the span of the prophecies that Daniel received were for a period of time spaning around 3,500 years give or take a few because of our lack of understanding of the relationship between God's timeframe and man's.

Now the Terrible Beast is identifiable today with our twenty twenty hindsight vision as the Islamic nation of people, associated with the Amorite nation, who have been coming against God and the Saints since the earilest of times and who God pointed to in revealed words to Abraham. The Book of Revelation also helps us. Christ also talked about this same time span, but the disciples were hindsighted by the scholarly understanding of their day of the length of a generation and we today still have this miss understanding today.

God also gave an indication through another prophet as to when the end would be based from when the temple was dedicated and from this we can know the full span of man's time before the finial judgement.

it is not impossible to find this out, it only requires us to allow the holy Spirit to reveal it to us but be careful how loudly you speak our your revelation because those who kill the prophets and the Saints will rise up against you and you will feel lonely in your understanding.

God's revelation is slowly being opened up for all of the Saints to have an understanding of the things to come.

Shalom

Jay

Comsal

Thankyou for your views, because they are actually mine too.
E B Elliot's books are excellent works.

Though you mention that Joel's book makes no reference to other schools of prophecy, it equally is not surprising. I remember as a "futurist" (I did not know that was what I was at the time either) that there was no other school of prophecy in my universe nor the universe of those around me. We were it, we were the hip thang so to speak. We were right, we were without question believing exactly what Gods word said.
Other views were irrelevant and wrong.

When I first heard the term Historicist I did not even know that that was what God had gently brought me around to become.

You mention the counter reformation. You are spot on with this. The counter reformation has never stopped nor has it stopped from it's goal of destroying Protestanism and it's proclaimation of the truth, and equally the protestant nations.
I recommend a book written in 1848 called "The Secret Plan of the Order" by Abbate Leone. Reading this book in hidsight it is clear that this guy was speaking the truth of his inside knowledge of the Jesuits and what he had overheard.

Everything he has reported in this book has come to pass during the last 150 years.

You mention correctly that the primary view of Islam was it's identification with False Prophet, but it also must be admitted that there was also the concensus that there is the optional and possibly coacting belief that the two horns are the Western Antichrist ie: the Pope, and the Eastern Antichrist ie: Muhammad.
This view was held by Luther, Calvin and numerous protestant commentators.

It is equally not impossible for Islam to be in this catagory because I and some other protestant authors consider Islam to not be a different religion but rather a Christian Heresy and blasphemy of the highest order.

On this basis it thence could be surmised that Muhammad and his caliphs were antichrist.
They certainly meet the definition of 1 John 4 "he who denies the Father and the Son, he is antichrist" and does not Islam do that well.
The Koran makes it clear that it is not right for God to have a Son.

In reality if the Pope claims to be Jesus Christ on Earth then it is equally fair to say that Muhammad ( according to the words of Jesus, "I will send you the conforter") claims to be the Holy Spirit by assuming this reference.

I am happy to co-exist with both views.

Again I agree with you on the transference of the seat of Satan from Babylon, to Pergamos, to Rome.
This is not conjecture, there is plenty of archaeolical evidence to prove it.

You hit the nail on the head saying both Islam Rome will work together. This is what is taking place right now, using the Hegellian philosophy of thesis antithesis equals synthesis.
There is going to become a more synthesised religion between Islam and Christendom.
This is also going to be on the basis of the 3 frogs that come from their mouths.
It is intersting that the frog symbol is directly linked to France in the fleur de lis which originally was 3 toads.
Clovis a French King was told by an angel (see another spoken to by an "angel") to remove the 3 cresents and replace it with 3 toads, which later became the fleur de lis.
This symbol though is tracable through all ancient cultures.

It is equally interesting that both the french revolution produced beheading as the method of execution and Islam also sees beheading as the method of execution, and we are told in Revelation 20:4

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

to christianarchist:

first, please do not confuse conversation with confrontation....I wish only to understand and/possibly learn (I do believe you are correct concerning being cautious with new translations of the Bible, i.e. there is a tremendous difference between the KJV and the NKJV at least looking at Daniel 9 = on a wing of of the temple... comapared to ...for the overspreading of abomination)...

a) which parts of the Bible do you think are talking about the future?

b) if none at all, how do you think all this will play out (until the return of Messiah Yeshua)?

standing in line, I noticed on the front page of the NY Times, of all things, an article on the drying up of the Euphrates River...amazing

Just read the article. They even mentioned the prophecy in Revelation.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/14/world ... rates.html[url][/url]