joelstrumpet

I'm not trying to stir up controversy, although I realize this is a very controversial subject. Since I so closely track with the Joel Richardson/Joel's Trumpet view of eschatology and overall theology, and have so much appreciated many of the posted comments to the news articles, I wanted to hear from folks on this topic.

Several months ago I was in a long car ride with a pastor from a church in a different community. We had some great fellowship after a day of hang gliding (you read correctly!), and after I had described some ministry from a woman at our local Prayer House, he asked me "Does your church allow women in the pulpit?" Things turned a little south after that, and over the course of the next few weeks we had an email discussion back and forth over the scriptural basis for women in ministry.

His basic point (although he was more nuanced than just this verse) was that Paul in 1 Timothy 2:12 said "But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet."

Many times I've been blessed and ministered to by women. I've gone to conferences where the main speaker/speakers have been women. I've seen women used in prophetic/ministry situations. The Children's "Pastor" at my church is a woman, and I "work" for her when my wife and I teach the 4's and 5's. So I am somewhat biased when I look at scripture--I want to find exceptions to 1 Tim 2:12. Would I attend a church where the main person in authority is a woman? Almost definitely I wouldn't, I don't think...

I can get a bit long winded, and I apologize ahead of time for that, but the following line of reasoning takes a bit of development. Up front I will say that I have the uneasy feeling that I'm questioning Paul, a true apostle of God, in what I'm laying out below. Am I off base? Is there something I'm missing?

Kurt's Argument

There are quite a few passages where Paul deals with the topic of women. Many times, frankly, he seems rather harsh toward them. There are cases where Paul wrote things that were his opinion and not a command of God—he says as much in the following verses (which deal with the topic of women):

"Now concerning virgins I have no command of the Lord, but I give an opinion" 1 Cor 7:25

"Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered?" 1 Cor 11: 13

Even in the 1 Timothy 2:12 passage he says "I do not allow..." Does that mean others CAN allow women to preach/exercise authority?

After making an argument from nature about covering women’s heads, Paul asks them to “judge for themselves”…frankly, it sounds like he’s not 100% sure, not definite if it’s God’s command, or his own opinion (Wow Kurt, did you just say that?).

"...if one is inclined to be contentious, we have no other practice..." 1 Cor 11:16

It’s like his argument here is “that’s the way we’ve always done it”, not “God says”.

The following two verses seem to be in contradiction—the first one clearly prohibits women from even opening their mouths in church:

“The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak...” 1 Cor 14:34

“But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head…” 1 Cor 11:5

The second verse describes how a woman is to pray or prophesy—alone? Does Paul mean they’re only supposed to prophesy in the home, and not at church? Are they supposed to do so only in front of other women? Deborah was a prophetess in the O.T., and judged men; did the Jews have more liberty that the Church, or vice versa?

Paul starts 1 Corinthians 11, where he requires women to wear head coverings, with this thought:

“I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you” 1 Cor 11:2

Are they the commands of God, or traditions?

I have the sense that Paul had some issues in the area of women/their role/their purpose. Wasn't he single his entire life? Paul confronted Peter on his hypocrisy of how he acted around Jews vs. how he behaved around Gentiles. Clearly apostles have struggles with sin, as all of us do. Is it possible that was an area in Paul’s life that was problematic?

I love Paul--I mean, after all, he wrote much of the new testament and the Church's essential doctrines. I don't like the feeling of questioning him, but I also can't ignore the passages included above.

Here is an excerpt of Peter's sermon in Acts 2:

"16 But this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:
17 AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says,
'THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND;
AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY,
AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS,
AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS;
18 EVEN ON MY BONDSLAVES, BOTH MEN AND WOMEN,
I WILL IN THOSE DAYS POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT
And they shall prophesy."

He's pretty clear that it is both men and women. There don't seem to be any caveats here, at least.

There are many examples of women who have been used greatly by God--Jackie Pullinger and Heidi Baker are two recent ones.

What is the proper view of this? Please share your insights. Thanks.

HELLO, HeLLo, Hello..hello...hel-lo....he...lo....(eh-hem, that's an echo)....crickets....

ANYBODY OUT THERE??

Hey, sorry, I'm not ignoring you. I just don't really have anything to add to this one at this point in time. ^_^' I think I generally agree with your view, though.

Agreed, I'm not really qualified to comment on this subject. Especially since I know of several women who are extremely knowledgeable about the bible and can argue rings around me!

I have come to the conclusion that women in ministry, where that ministry involves authority over men, is an anomaly, one that occurs often it seems now a days for various reasons but still was not part of Gods original design. Eve was created by God according to the Bible to be a helpmate. Can the helpmate lead the one she is called to serve? Many people seem to get offended at that concept, it is not politically correct in this day and age, but if one looks at what was said at the very beginning it would seem safe that those thoughts are foundational and weighted in that they effect everything that comes afterward to one degree or another.

Men have often stumbled in fulfilling their duty as being the primary leadership of people and God has allowed women to step up to the plate, especially it appears in extraordinary times such as we live in, to serve Him in this arena. Deborah and Esther are 2 examples, they both had authority but were exceptions and not the rule.The Bible is not filled with an many Deborah's and Esther's, it does have many stories of men leading nations, religion and family however.

You asked this,

"The following two verses seem to be in contradiction—the first one clearly prohibits women from even opening their mouths in church:

“The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak...” 1 Cor 14:34

“But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head…” 1 Cor 11:5"

I think that the first verse 1Cor.14:34 might make more sense if the word women was translated wife as the next verse instructs them to seek information from their husbands at home. It does seem that Paul is saying women or perhaps more properly wives, should not prophesy in church which I had not considered before however it is sandwiched in between Scriptures having to do with the subject of things spiritual. I recall that Phillip had 4 virgin daughters, meaning they were not married, who prophesied and the NASB identifies as prophetesses. With that seeming to be a confirmation of what I may be seeing for the first time as far as married woman's function in church I can see I will not be popular if I share it. People get really weird about eschatology, divorce and remarriage and women in ministry. Some are still confused about tongues and OSAS can cause a stir in some groups.

We have been having a intense discussion this past week on this very subject at www.aboutchristianssingles.com. You would have to register and then go to Bible Study and then look at 'Is it anointed or is it submitting part 2' although part 1 may be the best place to start...

Love ya, keep the faith, earl