Socks,

Now to your next point...

You said:

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That's simply not true. I've gotten into quite heated debates on this forum because I expect all of the bible to be true. Jesus spoke and the entire universe leapt into being! Every natural law that we know was created by him in that moment. Even before this he created logic, rational thought, intelligence, etc. So why do people think that some parts of the bible are wrong? If he knew enough to put everything in its place (and I myself believe that is down to the very smallest part of every single atom), then how could he be wrong about the very word he gave us to live by? It all has to make sense. Every last word. So tell me when has this happened? Quote: 14The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent's reach I'll answer your next argument so that we don't have to go through that. She wasn't actually given the wings of an eagle. That's an anthropomorphism which in this case means the woman was able to escape the serpents reach quickly. But tell me where she went in the desert for time, times and half a time?

At least we agree that God's Word is never wrong!!!

If none of the other critical components of verse 14 are literal, then why would you force the meaning of a actual desert?

Verse 14 Analysis:

The woman - Is this a literal woman or is it symbolic of Israel?
was given two wings of a great eagle, - Is this woman or Israel actually going to sprout wings or is it symbolizing something?
so that she might fly - Is this woman or Israel actually going to fly or is it symbolizing something?
to the place prepared for her in the desert, - Here we have the desert under question...
where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, - A time span that could invoke imagery that the early Christians would be familiar with (see my earlier posts...)
out of the serpent's reach - Is this an actual serpent that is going to harm the woman or Israel or is symbolic of something else?

I hope you see my point. God gave the imagery that would put the point across to the persecuted believers in a way that they would understand from their knowledge of the Old Testament.

How would you interpret this?

9 Out of one of them came another horn, which started small but grew in power to the south and to the east and toward the Beautiful Land. 10 It grew until it reached the host of the heavens, and it threw some of the starry host down to the earth

Who are the starry hosts? Well, the first inclination would be that they are fallen angels. Since almost everywhere else in scripture leads one to interpret that symbolism as angels, but that isn't the case in this set of apocalyptic literature. They are actually God's people: the mighty men and the holy people.

Again, apocalyptic literature is so full of symbolism and imagery, it is very concerning when someone picks out one word of a scripture and says that the word is to be taken at face value.

Perdonado,

Oh ok, you symbolize everything, I forgot. I tend to look at prophecy literally, but that's why we disagree so much.

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My comment didn't come "out of left field".

Ok well you changed the meaning then. First you said "has the woman been attacked" as it applied to Revelation 12:13. Now you are saying this verse applies to every time Israel has ever been attacked by Satan? I don't know how you come to that conclusion.

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Can you describe for me the exact future event verse 15 is discussing? I know that you can't. What event are you waiting for? How will you know it when it happens?

I think it will be plain when it happens. Maybe something to do with Israels water supply coming from the Golan Heights, maybe not. Maybe that giant dam built on gypsum in Iraq, maybe not. I do think it is a future event, and I've yet to hear reasoning from you to change my mind.

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Are you waiting for the earth to grow an actual mouth that swallows up an actual river that is somehow spewed out of a spiritual being's (Satan's) mouth?

I should have expounded more on anthropomorphisms. I knew you'd take the wings thing out of context, I guess I should have dealt with the mouth thing too.

Anthropomorphism: n. Attribution of human motivation, characteristics, or behavior to inanimate objects, animals, or natural phenomena.

The bible uses this quite regularly. For example, in Exodus 15:

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8 By the blast of your nostrils the waters piled up. The surging waters stood firm like a wall; the deep waters congealed in the heart of the sea.

It doesn't literally mean that God is a giant nose and he came and blew the walls of water up. He could have used wind, but probably just told the water to clear the way. A supernatural event that finite humans described in a way they understood; as a blast from the nostrils of God. Likewise, when Jesus says in Matthew 23:37

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"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.

It doesn't mean that Jesus literally has large chicken wings. And we can safely infer from this that God is not a giant nose with chicken wings.

Even if you're going to try and make the event as symbolic, you still have to say what each part is symbolic of. If the water is symbolic of Islam, then the earth has to be symbolic of something, if “the earth” is symbolic of nothing, then why would God include it in the passage? It means something, show me what it is referring to.

I've read several preterist theory's on the end times and they seem to symbolize things as well. Not just bits and pieces, but entire blocks of scripture because they don't have a proper argument for what it actually means. For instance, often they will say that Ezekiel 38 and 39 is a symbolic rendering of what happened in 70 AD in Jerusalem. Never mind the facts that show northern Africa, Libya and way more countries are involved. They simply state it's all symbolic. To me that's like going forwards in reverse. Doesn't fit. So if you're saying Islam is the water that was spewed out of the serpents mouth, then how does the earth swallow up Islam and prevent Israel from becoming muslim? And why would the earth (whatever you think that is) keep the Israelites in their delusion that Judaism is right and Christ is not the messiah? You can't just whitewash a piece of prophecy and state that it means something without giving a full explanation of what it is. God gave us details man!

Socks,

Please don't say I symbolize everything. That simply isn't a true statement. Only apocalyptic literature, where appropriate...

Also, I didn't change the meaning about Rev. 12:13.

Please give me a time line of events in Rev. 12 (verse by verse), and then we can continue our discussions. That should be relatively simply for you. I await your time line.

Perdonado,

Tell you what, I'll actually do it. I think it's probably pointless but I will because you asked so nicely

In the mean time you can tell me if the water coming from the serpents mouth is symbolic of Islam, then what is the earth?

Revelation 12

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1A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.

The woman is Israel. The stars represent the 12 tribes. Similar, but not exactly like Joseph's dream in Genesis 37:9:9 Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. "Listen," he said, "I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me." Only in Josephs dream, all Israel bowed to him.

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2She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.

Israel was about to give birth to the Messiah.

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3Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads.

Satan.

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4His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth.

Not sure about that one, is it fallen angels? They'd be cast out at the same time as him though.

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The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born.

Satan tried to kill the messiah, which he did with Herod's decree to kill boys 2 years and younger.

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5She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.

Christ, who in the future “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter”, and his resurrection.

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6The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

I'm not sure of when this will happen, but why is the timing of 1260 days so important to God? 1260 days of prophesying for the two witnesses as well.

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7And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

After the Messiah's resurrection in verse 5, after the 1260 days of verse 6, there was war in heaven and satan is cast down.

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10Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ.

I agreed with your arguments regarding the salvation and power and kingdom of God, except for this one point.

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For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down. 11They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death.

That verse and a half has satan in heaven accusing the brothers which means Christians, after Christ's resurrection, and their subsequent martyrdom.

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12Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short."

Satan has always been wandering to and fro in the earth causing havoc, but he's peeved because he was finally cast out of heaven, so he's really going to get in to the act.

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13When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent's reach.

Satan pursues Israel again, only this time she's given a safe place where he cannot even touch her. Where else do we hear of time, times and half a time?
Daniel 7:25 He will speak against the Most High and oppress his saints and try to change the set times and the laws. The saints will be handed over to him for a time, times and half a time.
Daniel 12:7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, "It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed."

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15Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.

This is yet future, and I'm not sure how that will look. If I'm correct, this is how you read it:
Then from his mouth the serpent spewed forth Islam, to overtake Israel and sweep them away with the torrent. But the Muslims helped Israel by opening their mouths and swallowing Islam that the dragon had spewed out of it's mouth.
I've heard it said different ways using that type of symbolism. This one was interesting:
Then from his mouth the serpent spewed forth the evil Nazi regime to overtake Israel and sweep her away with the torrent. But Great Britain and America helped the Jewish people by defeating the evil Nazi regime.

I bet the possibilities are endless...

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17Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring—those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

This is going to be the ultimate attack against God's people. Of course it won't be the first time Christians have been attacked by satan, but it will be the ultimate attack, culminating in Jesus second coming. It will be internal (within countries), external (country to country, although there's hardly a Christian nation left on the earth) and I believe will include every satanic deception since the dawn of time against Christianity. Already we see leftists, liberals and communists aligning with Islam, it isn't that far of a stretch to include Mormons, Jw's, wiccans, cults, etc.

Well there ya go. Do me the favour and show me your timeline in turn.

Socks,

If you were paying attention to my posts, you would have seen that I've already posted the time line.

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 3:03 pm

But, here is the simple summary again...

Let's first start out by summarizing the verses in the chapter. We have already agreed on the foundation that is laid out before us in the first five verses, Christ's birth up to the point of His ascension into heaven. Now we come to verse 6, the verse that I'll expand on in a minute. Immediately following verse 6 we read of the war in heaven between Michael and Satan. But Satan is hurled out of heaven and so we come to the proclamation of what just took place starting in verse 10. An event just occurred to "seal the deal" of sending Satan down to earth. What was it? The Christ has now received His authority, His rule over Satan and his fallen angels.

1 Peter 3:22 – “(Jesus Christ) who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.”

We see at the time that authority was given to Christ, the second part of verse 10 says that Satan was hurled down. It was the "blood of the Lamb" that allows us to overcome Satan.

1 John 5:5 - 5Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

Again, we read in verse 12 and 13 that Satan has been sent down to earth. Satan then pursues the "woman" (Israel) for giving birth to "the male child" (Jesus). Here we have the time of 1260 days or a time, times and half a time that the "woman" (Israel) is protected. We next read how Satan spews out his water like a river to overtake the "woman" (Israel) to overtake her, but the earth swallowed up this "water". This "water" is the lying deception, delusions, religious-isms that the world so readily soaks up. But, Israel is not fooled. So, who does the devil turn to? We see in the final verse that it is Christians (those that hold to the testimony of Jesus) that are the focus of Satan's attacks.

Socks,

In your analysis of verse 13, you state:

Quote:

Satan pursues Israel again, only this time she's given a safe place where he cannot even touch her. Where else do we hear of time, times and half a time?

Go back and re-read my post from Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 3:03 pm

Where else do we hear of time, times and half a time?

We see a time of severe affliction and tribulation on the people of Israel in Elijah's time:

How long did this time of affliction last? 1260 days, 3 1/2 years, or a time, times and half a time...

James 5:17 - Elijah was a man just like us. He prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the land for three and a half years.

Socks,

Now to answer your query about the interpretation of "earth" in Rev. 12:16...

It seems as though you may be alone, or at least one of the very few, that adhere to the actual earth in this passage...

Let's look at some established commentaries on the verse:


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1). Adam Clarke Commentary

Verse 16. The earth helped the woman
"Nothing, and indeed," as Bishop Newton excellently observes, "was more likely to produce the ruin and utter subversion of the Christian Church than the irruptions of so many barbarous nations into the Roman empire. But the event proved contrary to human appearance and expectation: the earth swallowed up the flood; the barbarians were rather swallowed up by the Romans, than the Romans by the barbarians; the heathen conquerors, instead of imposing their own, submitted to the religion of the conquered Christians; and they not only embraced the religion, but affected even the laws, the manners, the customs, the language, and the very name, of Romans, so that the victors were in a manner absorbed and lost among the vanquished."

MY COMMENT: The waters represents the enemies of Christians in this commentary, and the earth is representative of the Romans accepting Christianity. I'm not saying this is a correct interpretation, only making a point about the meaning of earth and water.


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2). Barnes' Notes on the New Testament

Verse 16. And the earth helped the woman.
It was enabled to avoid the direct attacks of the enemy, and when he attacked it in a new form, a new mode of intervention in its behalf was granted, as if the earth should open and swallow up a flood of water. We are not, therefore, to look for any literal fulfilment of this, as if the earth interposed in some marvellous way to aid the church. The sense is, that, in that state of obscurity and solitude, the Divine interposition was manifested, in an unexpected manner, as if when an impetuous stream was rolling along that threatened to sweep everything away, a chasm should suddenly open in the earth and absorb it. During the dark ages, many such interventions occurred, saving the church from utter destruction. Over-flowing waters are often in the Scriptures an emblem of mighty enemies.

Psalms 124:2-5, "If it had not been the Lord who was on our side, when men rose up against us; then they had swallowed us up quick, when their wrath was kindled against us: then the waters had overwhelmed us, the stream had gone over our soul: then the proud waters had gone over our soul."

Psalms 18:16, "He sent from above, he took me, he drew me out of many waters."

Jeremiah 47:2, "Behold, waters rise up out of the north, and shall be an overflowing flood, and shall overflow the land,"

etc. Compare Jeremiah 46:7-8.

Jeremiah 46:7-8 (New International Version)
7 "Who is this that rises like the Nile,
like rivers of surging waters?

8 Egypt rises like the Nile,
like rivers of surging waters.
She says, 'I will rise and cover the earth;
I will destroy cities and their people.'

MY COMMENT: Hold on... the waters represent mighty enemies? The earth represented a Divine manifestation? Again, I'm not saying this is a 100% correct interpretation, only making a point again about the meaning of earth and water.


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3). John Darby's Synopsis of the New Testament

He (Satan) seeks to pursue; wings he has none: but he uses a river, the movements of people under the influence of special motive and guidance, to overwhelm the woman. But the earth, this organized system in which men live, swallowed the waters up. This influence was in vain -was not met by an army, a counter-power, but was nullified.

MY COMMENT: Time out... Did John Nelson Darby (the father of modern dispensationalism and literal interpretation) say that the waters represent the movements of people and didn't mean an actual river? And, did he say that the earth represents an organized system in which men live and didn't mean an actual chasm in the earth? Did he say that there was some "organized system" in the earth ready to soak up that river that was spewed out?


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4). The New John Gill Exposition of the Entire Bible

And the earth helped the woman…
...of opinion that the barbarous nations are in this also designed, who embracing Arianism, and the corrupt religion, where they came, by which they were, in, some measure, mollified and reconciled to the Christians, did not seek to root them out, and destroy them, as Satan hoped they would; but since they themselves, with the Mahometans, are meant by the flood, the earth must be interpreted of the corrupt and antichristian church, the idolaters which sustained the force of this inundation, and for some time repelled it, and so secured the true church;...

...and the Turkish inundation was a scourge upon the antichristian party: so that it was the earth, or earthly part of professors, the idolaters, that bore the fury and force of this flood, and broke it off from the church.

MY COMMENTS: Ouch! We see it again... The rivers are enemies, and the earth is a group of people, or idolaters in this case!!!, that sustained the flood. Are these idolaters the Mahometans (Muhammad - Muslims) that soak up the spewing of Satan?


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5). David Guzik's Commentaries on the Bible

The earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth: This passage also describes God's ultimate protection of Israel from the fury of Satan and his antichrist in the great tribulation.

i. As it says in Isaiah 59:19, When the enemy comes in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD will lift up a standard against him.

MY COMMENTS: Again, the flood is the enemies... The earth is representative of God's ultimate protection.


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6). Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible - Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset and David Brown

The earth, as contradistinguished from water, is the world consolidated and civilized.

MY COMMENTS: The earth represents the peoples of the world...


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7). People's New Testament

The earth helped the woman. In some way the flood of persecution was so hindered that it failed to accomplish the object. I believe this refers to the hindrances often interposed by secular powers to stay persecution. The Hussites protected themselves under Zisca by force of arms; the German princes protected Luther; the edict of Nantes gave French Protestants a rest. These were times when "the earth" drank up the flood.

MY COMMENTS: How can this be... The earth drank up the floods of persecution. Say it isn't so...


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8 ). John Wesley's Explanatory Notes

Verse 16. But the earth helped the woman - The powers of the earth; and indeed she needed help through this whole period. "The time" was from 1058 to 1280; during which the Turkish flood ran higher and higher, though frequently repressed by the emperors, or their generals, helping the woman. "The" two "times" were from 1280 to 1725. During these likewise the Turkish power flowed far and wide; but still from time to time the princes of the earth helped the woman, that she was not carried away by it. "The half time" is from 1725 to 1836. In the beginning of this period the Turks began to meddle with the affairs of Persia: wherein they have so entangled themselves, as to be the less able to prevail against the two remaining Christian empires. Yet this flood still reaches the woman "in her place;" and will, till near the end of the "half time," itself be swallowed up, perhaps by means of Russia, which is risen in the room of the eastern empire.

MY COMMENTS: Wow... Wesley had his finger pointing in the right direction. Do you think he was that far off base with pointing to a people group as being "the earth" that swallows up the flood?



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To summarize: You seem to be the one that is going astray from nearly all logic and apocalyptic interpretation by assuming that this is going to be some single event that actually going to deal with a physical river or water supply and not Israel's enemies.

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I think it will be plain when it happens. Maybe something to do with Israels water supply coming from the Golan Heights, maybe not. Maybe that giant dam built on gypsum in Iraq, maybe not. I do think it is a future event, and I've yet to hear reasoning from you to change my mind.

Yes, I do believe the Muslims are helping to swallow up the torrent. But, then again, the flood continues to grow and the Muslims continue to grow until the final showdown. There have been many great theologians in history that understand symbolism and use the representation of symbolism when necessary to bring out the meaning of a verse. All of them agree on the concept of floods and rivers being the enemies of Israel and God's protection over Israel by people groups on the earth.

Yeah it could very well be symbolic. I don't really care if my interpretation doesn't follow your scholars though. I don't agree in a pre-trib rapture either and I'm sure a lot of them do. I'm not sure I agree with your interpretation though. Basically you're making the text say this:

15Then from his mouth the serpent spewed Islam like a river, to overtake the woman Israel and sweep her away with the torrent. 16But the Muslims helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the Islam that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.

The surrounding nations became Muslim so Israel wouldn't have to become Muslim? Grasping at straws man. It does sorta make sense though, much like the one I quoted about the evil Nazi regime.

One more thing, if satan was cast out at the moment of Christs resurrection, then the brothers of verses 10 and 11 couldn't possibly be Christian. It would have to refer to followers of God before Christs death. Is that what you think it means?

Also I'm curious about how you gloss over this:

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5She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days. 7And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.

There are three events that happen there. If Satan is kicked out in verse 5, shouldn't it be followed by verse 7? Why would God put a pause between the two of 1260 days?

I've not glossed over the verse your referencing. I spent a considerable amount of "bits in cyberspace" expounding on verse 6. No need to rehash if you don't read my posts.

It's not that the Muslims helped the woman. If you can't see that, then there is no use in trying to explain it to you... You're just being condescending.

Already explained about the "brothers" of verses 10 and 11...

Why did you bring pre-trib into this? It wasn't until Darby that pre-trib even came on the scene in the 1840's and really widely distributed until Scofield in 1904. That would rule out the majority of the commentator's. When you don't have an argument, you simply say you don't care and divert the attention elsewhere. I will not get into a discussion on pre-trib to deflect the discussion at hand.

We are getting nowhere and I'm tired of repeating myself. I think I've stated my case fairly well... And, unless you have something of substance to discuss I would have to say that I'm done, but will let you have the last word.