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New Covenant or Renewed Covenant.

General bible study and discussion.

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New Covenant or Renewed Covenant.

Postby Donna on Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:02 am

I was not quite sure what to name this thread. However, it is more then just about the Old/New Covenant.

How many different covenants did God make with Abraham, and how many with Moses?

What covenant is circumcision a sign of?

Gen 17:2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
Gen 17:3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
Gen 17:4 As for me, behold, my covenant [is] with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
Gen 17:5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
Gen 17:6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
Gen 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
Gen 17:9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
Gen 17:10 This [is] my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
Donna
 
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Covenants

Postby Screaming Eagle on Tue Jan 15, 2008 5:59 am

Donna,
You've asked a very important question for all of us to consider. I don't think most of the church has been adequately taught about the concept of covenant and the true meaning of covenant in God's eyes. I've done a great deal of study of covenant 'theology' over the years so what I'm about to write is an abbreviated synopsis of how I understand covenant. Essentially, I believe that Covenant is a big part of the picture of Who God is in His great Heart.
There was a covenant made with Noah in Gen 9. Note, there are the 'Noahide laws' in verses 1-7 and in verse 9 the terms of the covenant are spelled out. Note that covenants are ordinarily given from the stronger to the weaker parties. Conquerors for example, essentially dictated the terms of what the covenant would be to the vanquished. In this case, it's God making the terms of His heart very clear to Noah and his sons. It speaks of their relationship to the creatures, Noah's 'descendants' (of which Abram was certainly one) and 'all flesh' and was between 'Me and you and every living creature of all flesh' v. 9-17. He also mentions that the rainbow is 'to remember the 'everlasting' covenant between God and every living creature.'
I could go way down a rabbit trail with that one but Heb 13:20 is a good starting place of mention. I think of it as a light in Light of Christ shining back on all history to illuminate what was only shadows in the Hebrew scriptures. Basically, if backed into a corner, I'd say that the Everlasting Covenant is a Covenant made within the Godhead prior to the creation of time/matter etc and that Jesus is the final revelation of that Covenant heart of God. It's essentially a Covenant of Redemption declared before the foundation of anything we know of as 'the world'. It was a covenant made 'in the Spirit' before Holy Spirit ever 'hovered' over the waters of creation in anticipation of what God was about to do.
Gen 15 is the dramatic story of God's 'promise' to Abram for an heir and God's covenant with Abram. Starting in v 5 God gives Abram details about His promise and God's desire for what He will do through Abram and his descendants. Abram cut (cutting covenant is the term) the animals in half at God's request, the birds of prey came to light on the animals and Abram chased them off. It says that as the sun was going down a 'deep sleep' (essentially a trance if you look the word up) fell on Abram along with terror and great darkness. God makes some prophetic declarations about the future generations and a 'flaming torch' passed through the pieces of the animal sacrifices. Then in v 18 God declares again the promise to Abram's descendants including specific lands of specific tribes of peoples that lived in the land.
In Gen 17 we see God making a covenant with Abram when Abram was 99 years old. It was God establishing a covenant with Abram to multiply Abram and his descendants exceedingly to make Abram the 'father of a multitude of nations'. God changed Abram's name that day and gave Abram literally a part of Himself in Abram's name. He added the 'ha' which was/is part of God's name in Hebrew. It too was an 'everlasting' covenant although this word for everlasting *can* mean for an 'exceedingly long period of time or indefinite period of time'. Circumcision was the 'sign' of the covenant between God, Abraham and Abraham's descendants. Sarai's name was changed to 'Sarah' which also added what is thought of as a 'part' of God into her literal name as demonstration of His covenant with their descendants.
God affirmed the covenant with Abraham and Sarah in Isaac and in Jacob at different times. Ishmael and Abraham and all the 'servants' in the house were apparently circumcised on the same day. I'm guessing the next week or so was a scene of a pretty grumpy group of folks. :cry: But they knew something about God that they had never imagined before.
Several other covenants were made between men and before God along the way. They were Holy declarations complete with ritual that had apparently been given to them by God. Part of it was 'blessing' associated with covenants, mutual agreements for partnership, land deals (at least sometimes), mutual protection and it was always sealed with a meal and usually great celebration. Very serious solemn 'oaths' before God that God has always recognized for better or worse.
Take the example in Joshua 9 for example. The Gibeonites 'craftily' approached the Israelites after they'd conquered several cities. In v 6 it talks about the Gibeonites making covenant with Joshua and the Israelites. Even though they were lying about where they were from (and the Israelites didn't pray or ask God about it first) the deal was made to 'let them live'. Five Kings attacked the Gibeonites in retaliation. Gibeonites called on the 'covenant' partners (Joshua et al). God backed up that covenant even though it was made under deceitful circumstances. If you read Joshua 10, there are some very graphic descriptions of what God did to fight against those Kings. The most dramatic of those was to literally make the 'sun stand still and the moon stopped' until the nation avenged themselves of their enemies. I think that's a pretty fair description about how God thinks about covenant.
You mentioned the Sinai covenant. In Exodus 19 we hear God reminding the Israelites about what they'd just seen happen. He's led them, He's fought for them, He's given them water all after that little episode of the consecration of the First Born and the whole Passover/death business, the Feast of Unleavend Bread, the Plagues (the one with the frogs still gets me). God offers (after reminding them of who He is) them the opportunity to 'hear my voice and keep my Covenant' . He offers to make them His 'own possession' even though 'all the earth is Mine'. He wants to make them a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. They say 'all this we will do' (1st time). They heard the trumpet that made them tremble and Moses brought them out 'to meet God' v17. I love this story :lol:
Ex. 20 has God giving the words of his terms of covenant. What most people call the 10 commandments. In v 18, they 'perceived the thunder and lightning flashes and the sound of the trumpet and the mountain smoking' and it says they 'trembled and stood at a distance'. They they said to Moses 'speak to us yourself and we will listen, but let not God speak to us, or we will die'. Moses replies v20 'Do not be afraid; for God has come in order to test you and in order that the fear of Him may remain with you, so that you may not sin.'
God lays out the deal, they tell Moses 'hey, you go talk to Him. We'll listen to you but we're scared. Chapter 21 seems to be God's answer to their 'standing at a distance' despite all that He's showed them and done for them. He lays out the ordinances 'to set before them'. In other words, 'if you don't trust me after all you've seen and all I've done, try it this way. Go ahead. I'll be here after you've tried to do it your way.' 'Here's what you can try. I'll be here when you get tired.' Then the 'Law' or guidelines gets very specific about how to do each little thing that He wanted to teach them by His Grace after having made them into a Holy nation.
Personally, I think it's quite possible that God wanted to swoon them in Holy Spirit before He ever laid out the 'ordinances'. I think He wanted to baptize them right proper as an entire nation at the foot of that mountain in Holy Spirit but they backed away from trusting Him. They couldn't admit that 'we can't love the Lord our God with all our heart'. 'We can't trust, we don't know how'. And He says 'okay, try it this way'. Their 'religious response' was 'we will do all these things'. He says 'right'.
The covenant was intended to be with the entire nation of Israel assembled. Moses just ended up being the spokesman because he was the one called to the top of the mountain and dared to go meet God.
You mentioned 'renewed' covenant. The covenant at Sinai (or Law or Torah) was a set of instructions about how to conduct themselves as a Holy Nation. Obviously, they couldn't then (nor can we now) keep all of the words of those instructions. Think God was surprised? Think again. He gave them ways to alleviate their own personal sin as well as the sin of the nation and the sin of the priests. Daily sacrifices were reminders of that blood spilled. National repentance was built into the very fiber of the nation. They never kept that covenant. Never. And it cannot be kept now by any man completely.
So, God divorced them. Read Jeremiah 2 as an eye opener. I can almost hear God's heart breaking as He says in v 20 'For long ago I broke your yoke and tore off your bonds; but you said 'I will not serve!'. For on every high hill and under every green tree you have lain down as a harlot. Yet I planted you a choice vine a completely faithful seed. How then have you turned yourself before Me into the degenerate shoots of a foreign vine? She refused to be ashamed. Chapter 3:8 says 'And I saw that for all the adulteries of faithless Israel, I had sent her away and given her a writ of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear (note a different mention of Israel and Judah even referring to them as 'sisters') because she went and was a harlot also'.
He invites repentance, they refuse. Both of them. All of them. All of us. All of us.
Jeremiah 31 is one of the most amazing chapters in the Bible to me. Honestly, every single time I read Jeremiah I hear a voice crying. I hear both God's voice crying and I hear what sounds like Jeremiah's voice crying and weeping and wailing. Jeremiah knows how to wail. Believe me.
Jeremiah 31: 15 starts off talking about Rachel weeping for her children 'because they are no more' (also in Matthew 2:18). They were not there. They were not there to see the Messiah. The Lord tells them 'restrain your voice from weeping and your eyes from tears, for your work will be rewarded declares the Lord. And they will return from the land of the enemy. There is hope for your future declares the Lord'. Those just might be the most refreshing words I've read in the Bible. He goes on to say 'I have surely heard Ephraim grieving, You have chastised me, and I was chastised'. Ephraim (collectively) is saying 'you spanked our wandering butts and we got the message'. After they turned back, they repented 'because of the reproach of my youth'. 'I was a wild, dumb, faithless, careless harlot Daddy. Please take me back'. Verse 20 says (as the Lord Himself cries) 'Is Ephraim my dear son? Is he a delightful child? Indeed, as often as I have spoken against him, I certainly still remember him. Therefore, my heart yearns for him: I will surely have mercy on him declares the Lord. Folks, that's Love in action. That's covenant dedication being worked out in us even as we speak.
Jeremiah 31:27 says 'Behold, the days are coming when I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah (note, two separate entities) with the seed of man and with the seed of beast. As I have watched over them to pluck up, to break down, to overthrow, to destroy and to bring disaster, so I will watch over them to build and to plant declares the Lord'.
Verse 31:31 says 'Behold, the days are coming when I will make a 'new' covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah'. It's a new marriage in process. Just as He told Hosea to go marry that tramp just to expose the faithlessness of Israel and repeatedly taker her back, so the Lord (in His mercy) is going to 'renew' His marriage vows. The word used is chadash. The root of chadash according to Strong's is:

a primitive root; to be new; causatively, to rebuild:--renew, repair.

Fairly, the word can be translated as 'renewed' or 'repaired' The first time that word was used in the Bible referred to a 'new' Pharoah that didn't know Joseph. it could be 'different' depending on the context. Except for one thing. He goes on to say 'not like the covenant I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt. My covenant which they broke , although I was a husband to them. v33 Bu this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, I will put (also a covenant term) My law within them and on their heart I will write it, and I WILL be their God and the SHALL be My people'.
It's a covenant of a different type that is renewed 'as a husband to them'. It's all about relationship folks. It's all about a marriage to our Husband and being part of His family. It truly IS a wedding in Heaven and we're invited to be the Bride. Not to decide who the other members of the wedding party are. Not to prepare the meal. Not to decide how to dress ourselves. But to crawl our broke-leg (remember Mephibosheth?) selves up under that table and feast with Him. He says 'go out on the highways and byways and invite them all. It oon't matter how they're dressed. Tell them to come. There's plenty of room. The first shall be last and the last shall be first. Come on in. The wine is excellent. Come even if you're tired. We can rest. Come on in, whosoever (are you a whosoever?) will!!!
It's late. I'm going to rest. God Loves us. Let us Love one another and give away freely what has been given to us. Praise God.

May the Lamb who was slain receive the just reward of His suffering.
Screaming Eagle
 
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Postby agrace on Tue Jan 15, 2008 2:22 pm

Screaming Eagle, thank you for the insightful post. Some of your thoughts are beautiful. Interesting comments about the Sinai covenant too - I've never heard it expressed like that and your ideas are well worth pondering.

Along the lines of keeping the covenant - reading the historical books is a real eye opener - how quickly they fell away, how far they fell. It's amazing to me that Solomon, who was the wisest man who ever lived (1 Kings 3:12), who built the temple, saw the glory of God fill it, who spoke to Him face to face, not too long after built altars and high places to just about every pagan god around. And the kings of both kingdoms - they each had 20 kings. Eight of Judah's were good kings. Israel had NO good kings, NONE! Well, to be fair, the short-lived Tibni is unknown concerning how he reigned, but the rest are described as evil in varying degrees. They were all either bad or very bad.

Even out of Judah's eight good kings, only two - Hezekiah and Josiah - broke down the high places and altars, and only ONE reinstated Passover - Josiah. 2 Kings 22 describes how the high priest "just happened" upon the Torah in the temple when he was picking up some money, told Josiah, who asked him to read it. When the high priest did, Josiah tore his clothes in despair because he realized that they were in deep trouble. Think about it - he had NO IDEA what it said! Chapter 23 goes on to describe how he tore down all the high places, destroyed all the altars, killed all the pagan priests, removed the idols from the temple (they had them inside!) and even removed the idols from Samaria, from where the northern kingdom had built them. And incredibly, the text says this -

2Ki 23:21 The king issued this order to all the people: "Observe Pesach to Adonai your God, as written in this scroll of the covenant."
22 For Pesach had not been so observed since the days when the judges ruled Isra'el — not during the times of any of the kings of Isra'el or of the kings of Y'hudah.

The Passover had not been properly (if at all) observed since the time of the judges, not even by David, who was a man after God's own heart! It boggles the mind. I was reading in Ezekiel last night and "watched" as Ezekiel saw the glory of God leave the temple, and I recalled back to where the glory first filled the new temple following its dedication by Solomon. The glory remained for almost 400 years - through all the idol worship and disobedience, through the placement of idols within the house of God itself, through all those evil kings. God is longsuffering and His grace is amazing. Because even after all that, He will still keep His promises to restore that evil, stubborn, fallen people. And even after all we do, no matter how dirty we are when we first approach Him, He still takes us in. It's amazing.

Anyway, you mentioned rabbit trails, guess I went down a little one. :)

But I agree with you - the new covenant is a renewed one, because it heals the broken, who couldn't keep the covenant in the first place, and restores them even better than before. You said it very well -

It's a covenant of a different type that is renewed 'as a husband to them'. It's all about relationship folks. It's all about a marriage to our Husband and being part of His family. It truly IS a wedding in Heaven and we're invited to be the Bride. Not to decide who the other members of the wedding party are. Not to prepare the meal. Not to decide how to dress ourselves. But to crawl our broke-leg (remember Mephibosheth?) selves up under that table and feast with Him. He says 'go out on the highways and byways and invite them all. It oon't matter how they're dressed. Tell them to come. There's plenty of room. The first shall be last and the last shall be first. Come on in. The wine is excellent. Come even if you're tired. We can rest. Come on in, whosoever (are you a whosoever?) will!!!


Great example using Mephibosheth, by the way. I'll think of it every time I read about David's mercy to him. Interesting to note also that the reason David spared him was because of his oath (or covenant!) that he had with his father Jonathan - another type to remind us how God keeps His promises.
agrace
 
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Postby Screaming Eagle on Tue Jan 15, 2008 2:31 pm

Yep, you're right agrace. I think the story of Mephibosheth is a prophetic declaration for all of us that is sometimes missed. It's interesting because Mephib had been hiding in a cave because he'd always been told that David wanted to kill him. David not only gives him a place to stay and a feast, he says 'Oh, btw, because of the Covenant I made with your father, I've got some land that's yours too. I've been saving it up for you'. Come, eat, rejoice in your brokenness.

It's interesting too, that Josiah is one of only 6 people in the Bible that were named before they were born. Hint: Ishmael was the first and Jesus Christ was the last (except for the promise in Revelation of a 'new' name). Look for the others. You might be surprised at who they are.
May the Lamb who was slain receive the just reward of His suffering.
Screaming Eagle
 
Posts: 110
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2007 11:30 pm
Location: Louisiana

Postby Donna on Fri Jan 18, 2008 6:52 am

The root of chadash according to Strong's is:

a primitive root; to be new; causatively, to rebuild:--renew, repair.


Here is what I get from the BlueLetterBible.org Strong's concordance.

The root of chadash according to Strong's is:

1) new, new thing, fresh

If one looks at the way it is used in other passages, the meaning "renewed", "rebuild" etc... does not come to mind, but rather a NEW, as in brand new thing. So, no I do not get a renewed vow or anything like that. This is the meaning I also get from the context of Jeremiah 31:31. "Not like", meaning it is different. This is the meaning I read into the text because a "renewed covenant" would be the "same as", "not like".
Donna
 
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Postby agrace on Fri Jan 18, 2008 3:14 pm

My Strong's says the same thing -

02319 chadash {khaw-dawsh'}

from 02318; TWOT - 613a; adj

AV - new 48, new thing 4, fresh 1; 53

1) new, new thing, fresh


However, what Screaming Eagle was referring to was the root of it - 2318 - which is the following -

02318 chadash {khaw-dash'}

a primitive root; TWOT - 613; v

AV - renew 7, repair 3; 10

1) to be new, renew, repair
1a) (Piel)
1a1) to renew, make anew
1a2) to repair
1b) (Hithpael) to renew oneself
agrace
 
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Postby Donna on Fri Jan 18, 2008 7:49 pm

Agrace,

Look how it is used in other passages. Does it mean renewed or new? I looked at other passages, and found it to me new rather then renewed. Couple this with the term "not like" to me this means something different.
Donna
 
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Postby Screaming Eagle on Sat Jan 19, 2008 1:53 am

Donna,
I mentioned the fact that it could mean 'new' as in different kind. In fact, if you look carefully at the paragraph starting with 'Fairly' you'll see that.
I think the problem is that sometimes we look at 'covenant' as some sort of 'legal' abstraction. The simple truth is that it's a statement of God's heart desire for faithful relationship.
If we miss that, we've missed the very essence of who He is.
I don't pretend to know Strong's heart or his intent in defining 'chadash' the way he did. It's the same word 'chadash' that he gave two separate 'definitions' to. In Hebrew, it's one word 'chadash' with one root meaning. The basic meaning of that in Hebrew is 'restore' or 'renew'.
The simple fact is that it IS both a 'new' kind (written on our hearts') as well as a 'renewed' covenant of marriage that is written in His blood. To think of it as 'either/or' is to buy into separation which is the expressed goal of the enemy for all of us.
Quibbling over words is for Pharisees. I did the best I could to express God's heart throughout scripture. Please consider His heart.
May the Lamb who was slain receive the just reward of His suffering.
Screaming Eagle
 
Posts: 110
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2007 11:30 pm
Location: Louisiana

Postby Donna on Sat Jan 19, 2008 7:37 am

Screaming Eagle,

I do consider his heart, please do not mistake that at all. Yes, God loves Israel as his. We are discussing what the "new covenant" means, not wether or not God's heart is for Israel.

Taken in context it is not a renewed covenant, but rather a new one as in not like the old one. God is not renewing his covenant with Israel so much as making a new covenant.

The marriage contract/old covenant is a matter of Law not of the heart, although one would suppose there is some sort of emotional feelings. It spells out the obligations of both sides. For instance a man would say he would supply a house and the upkeep for the women for her whole life or not depending on a possible divorce. Much like we think of a prenuptial agreement today. He would spell out what type of care to give any children the marriage produced. It would spell out any obligations the women would have. Would she be obligated to take care of the house and children, for instance?

Was it God's intention to keep the old covenant forever? If it was why would he speak of a "New Covenant" not like the former one? If it is a "covenant unlike the former one" what would the details be? For you see God does not have to renew his old covenant to renew his commitment to Israel. He can institute a new contract/covenant. Which is what apparently has happened. A different covenant this time one that is not made by the shedding of animal blood, but by the shedding of his(God's) son's blood.

It was not God who broke or nulified the old covenant-it was the wife/women who did so. God was no longer obligated under law to honor his part of the covenant-contract. But, God being who he is and his character he has chosen to offer a new contract to the women/wife Israel. If this contract is not like the old one what does this mean? Does it mean there are new obligations? What about the old obligations? God tells us that this new one is better then the old one. So, the obligations of the women must not be the same.

There are several indications that the old obligations no longer applied to the women/Israel. Under the old contract, only men from the tribe of Levi could be priests. Kings could only come from the tribe of Judah. Kings were not allowed to be priests. Under the new contract- only one man was allowed to be both the high priest and king, Jesus. Circumcision was not necessary for gentile converts to this new contract. In the old contract-gentile converts had to be circumcised. So, here we have two very important indications that the old obligations no longer apply in the "new contract". There are more indications such as an "eye for an eye". Jesus even mentions this one. He told us not to mete out justice on the order of an eye for an eye, but to turn the other cheek and forgive 70X7. We are told by Jesus to let the wheat grow up with the chaff, or in other words do not kill(stone) the law breakers. Now we have four very important imdications that the obligations of the "old contract/covenant" are no longer valid. Another indication is from Paul himself. He tells us;

Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Gal 5:4Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace


Here Paul is telling us that to be justified by the flesh(circumcision) then Christ is no longer useful to us and we are obligated to do the "whole law". Basically putting us back under the old contract/covenant. Why would we as Christians want to go backwards to the "old contract/covenant"-which was to bring us to Christ anyway? You can't be a Christian and live under the old "contract/covenant. As Christians we are told to move onto the new way of doing things. Hebrews says it this way;

Hbr 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
Hbr 5:13 For every one that useth milk [is] unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
Hbr 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, [even] those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.


Why would we need to keep using the "old contract/covenant"? Why would a "christian" need to keep being brought to Christ? Why not move onto the "New Covenant" with the new obligations?
Donna
 
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Postby Screaming Eagle on Sat Jan 19, 2008 4:15 pm

Donna,
I think the 'conditions' of the New Covenant are what God intended from the 'Old' one which is trusting Him and beholding Him as good. That's what He wanted to do at Sinai (look back at the post I made about that) and they decided they'd rather not 'behold' Him.
I think the condition of the 'new in kind' AND the 'renewed' covenant is simple obedience in Love to Him and trusting His Faithfulness. He'd carefully demonstrated His Faithfulness to the Israelites before Sinai so He'd 'proven Himself' as alive, as their Protector, Provider and He'd declared His Destiny for them (and us) in setting them free from bondage and the yoke of slavery.
My point is that it's the same word in Hebrew (chadash) that Strong defined in two different ways for whatever reason. The most fundamental definition of that is 'renewed' as demonstrated through Hosea with Gomer. And with Mephibosheth. The covenant between David and Jonathan was never set aside or abrogated. It was just that Mephibosheth 'believed' lies that were told to him about David's intent and David's heart toward Jonathan and all his descendants. Including broke leg Mephibosheth who had been in hiding fearful of David. There's a great picture here. Please read that story and follow it all the way through.
May the Lamb who was slain receive the just reward of His suffering.
Screaming Eagle
 
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Location: Louisiana

Postby Donna on Sun Jan 20, 2008 2:10 am

Screaming Eagle,

The point I was making and the point you are making are different.

I do not think what God wanted under the old covenant was about faith. God never changes and he has always wanted people to have faith in him. It started with Adam down through Noah, to Abraham and so on and so forth. The Mosaic/Law covenant was for the Land of Israel. And as Paul points out it was to bring us to Christ. Circumcision was also for the Land of Israel. As a Christian my hope is eternal life with God in the "Jerusalem from above". It has nothing to do with an earthly kingdom the way Israel is expecting to have an earthly kingdom in the Land Of Israel.
Donna
 
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Postby Screaming Eagle on Sun Jan 20, 2008 1:27 pm

It's clear to me that God wants 'people' as His Kingdom. It's not about a piece of sand in the desert and never has been. It's about a kingdom of Priests and a Holy Nation. It's a very personal relationship trusting in Him. It's always been about Faith and Trust in Him. The early Israelites decided at Sinai not to engage in that. He gave them the instructions in the Torah to give them the experience of trying to do that on their own and out of their own righteousness and with the work of their hands just to show them that it can't be done that way.

It's a Holy Romance of courtship. It's about the Bride learning to Trust the Husband and growing into that Holy Covenant relationship of Love in submission to Him. It's a marriage restored in forgiveness after the bride wandered in her heart. That wandering led (and leads) to nothing less than death of a relationship. He's wooing us into restoration of that relationship.
May the Lamb who was slain receive the just reward of His suffering.
Screaming Eagle
 
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Postby Donna on Mon Jan 21, 2008 12:48 am

Screaming Eagle,

It is about both. Why do I say this? God is asserting his ownership over Planet Earth and Heaven. And about the being the God of every living thing that inhabits Planet Earth ande Heaven.

In a sense satan was allowed control over Planet Earth and it's inhabitance when Adam and Eve sinned against God. The bible is a history of God's plan to take back this control.
Donna
 
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Postby Screaming Eagle on Mon Jan 21, 2008 1:03 pm

Donna,
I think it's 'religion' that has stolen the Life of the Living God and carefully schooled us to believe that it's about 'control'. He does take back all that He's paid for in restoration. But fundamentally, it's about trusting relationship and loving response to Him. His spoken voice, His written Word, His touch. Just like a Faithful Bride should indeed do.
If we don't 'get' the notion that it's about dancing with Him in Holy Romance, we're stuck in 'dead' religion consisting of 'rules', 'obligations' and 'ritual' that could also be said of witchcraft.
May the Lamb who was slain receive the just reward of His suffering.
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Postby Donna on Mon Jan 21, 2008 1:15 pm

Pure religion is taking care of the widow and the orphan. I agree our redemption is about our relationship with him. It is about learning to trust him blindly. Learning his likes and dislikes, much like a marriage is about learning to love your spouse. Learning his(I am a women who has been married over 30 years) ways, what makes him happy, what is expected of us etc....

One must not forget he is also a God of justice. Justice tempered with mercy. You can't seperate one from the other, for both are aspects of God's character. Seperating the past from the present is a good way to get an unbalanced understanding of God. One needs to put it all together to get a well grounded understanding of his character.
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Postby Screaming Eagle on Tue Jan 22, 2008 5:41 pm

Donna,
God has not changed from the 'Old' Testament to the 'New' Testament. His Heart has always been the same heart of Love, Grace and Mercy. Jesus Christ was the clear revealing of that so that none of us would miss it. The Bible is one consistent love story calling us into a Holy Dance with Him one and all.
Your comment about 'pure religion' is well taken. Problem is (from my perspective anyhow) that far too few 'churches' or even denominations take that very scripture seriously. Instead, they seem to want to puff themselves up and build their own Kingdoms instead of dying to self, picking up our cross and following Him with a heart of Mercy.
May the Lamb who was slain receive the just reward of His suffering.
Screaming Eagle
 
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Postby Donna on Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:45 pm

From my perspective, far too many churches in America take the scriptures seriously. Grace and Mercy is what God is about. He is also about correct living. The form of easy grace American churches practice is leading the churches to embrace sin and calling it love.
Donna
 
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Postby jay on Mon Sep 29, 2008 4:19 am

Please allow me to post the following article: -

The Renewed Covenant of the Bible
Introduction
Our understanding of the Bible is loaded down with many wrong concepts that in reality fracture our relationship with God. In particular our search for an easy way to gain entry into eternity is fraught with failure and even Jesus warned against it when he said: -

Matthew 7:13-14: - "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

The “New Covenant” theology is one such way we look for an easy way into heaven. We say that the “Law” no longer applies to us and that we are under grace but even that “grace” has boundary conditions. For example, Jesus taught a number of times that,

“unless you can forgive, then God cannot forgive you.”1

That is conditional and is a boundary condition for our righteous and entry into eternity with the Lord.

Jesus also stated: -

Matthew 5:17-18: - "Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them. For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.

Because the Israelites did not fully grasp God’s grace of redemption, He spelt out the boundary conditions that applied for them and these boundary conditions were used by the “righteous” people among the Israelites to determine their acceptance to the Lord and so the “Law” was entrenched into their psyche as their means of entering into “heaven”.

Jesus actually applied a stricter code of behaviour than was contained within the Mount Sinai revelation of the Law and its expansion by the Scribes and Pharisees. For example:

1. In Matthew 5:21-222 Jesus taught two aspects about killing a person:

a. that holding enraged anger against our brother is equivalent to actually killing him which is why we should never let the sun go down when we are angry but that we should quickly forgive our brother lest we are found guilty of our sin, and

b. that considering your brother as foolish, [which from a Biblical perspective is to consider that the person is walking contrary to God], without attempting to encouraging him to repent and return to God is equivalent to physically killing him because we condemned him to death and did nothing to save him we ourselves will be found guilty of killing that person.3

2. In Matthew 5:27-284 Jesus taught that the lustful desire of a woman was also adultery and was just as sinful as the physical act of adultery with the woman.

As such he pointed out that the Law still applied but that God’s expectations were such that it would only be by His Grace that we would be able to keep the “Law.”

Yes God’s love for us is unconditional in that he “Loved us so much that he sent his only begotten son to dies for us so that whoever believes in him will be saved5

Let us now consider the references to the “new covenant.”

References to “New Covenant” in the Bible

The following references refer to the “New Covenant” in the English translations. The author has also provided his translation for these same References to reflect what he believes is the true position of God on this matter.

Qualification: - Just as the theological understanding of the Bible translators influenced the translation outcomes for each of the translators
and the translation versions, I also must not let my theological understanding determine the way I would translate the original Hebrew and Greek versions of the Bible otherwise I will display the same error as they have. Wherever possible I have attempted to allow the context of the original text to uncover the English translation that I have suggested. Given that I am fallible, I trust that I have provided a better translation and understanding of the references quoted below.

Old Testament References

Jeremiah 31:31-34: - "Behold, the days6 are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new7 covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant which I made with their fathers when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant which they broke, though I was their husband, says the LORD. But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.8 And no longer shall each man teach his neighbour and each his brother, saying,

`Know the LORD,' for they shall all know me, from the
least of them to the greatest, says the LORD; for I
will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their
sin no more."


A better translation of verse 31, which the Jewish scholars also hold too, is: -

Behold the day is coming says the lord when I will make the covenant like new with the house of Israel and the House of Judah

A better translation of verse 33a, which follows on from verse 31, is: -

But this is the covenant which I will remake with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD:

The fulfilment of Jeremiah 31:31-34

The question that has to be answered is, “When will this prophecy be fulfilled?”

The author’s understanding is that this prophecy is still to be fulfilled and that it will happen after Jesus’ second return to earth to rule as the Messianic king. Jesus himself hinted at this in Luke 14:31-33, when he claimed that the Jewish people would seek his terms of peace9 when he returns as the conquering king10 in the future.11 But before that can happen, the children and the children’s children must suffer the iniquity of the fore fathers during the third and fourth age of Israel. At the start of the fifth age of Israel Jesus will return and the Lord will renew his covenant with the House of Judah and Israel. God’s timing, well possible in 30 or so years time.

New Testament References

Introduction

Most of the references to the “new” covenant in the following New Testament passages have been translated from the Greek word “kainh” {kaineé}, which has the meaning of “made new” or “refreshed”. Of the forty-five times that Strong’s NT2537 is found in the New Testament, the Author has only identified six instances where it is directly associated with the word “covenant”

There are only twenty-three references to the Greek word “>ne/a$” {néas}, which has the meaning of “brand new”, in the New Testament and of these only 1 is associated with the word “covenant/testament”.

To highlight this distinction between ne/on {brand new} and kainou/$ {made like new/renewed} in the New Testament we only have to refer to the following one verse parable:

Matthew 9:17: - Neither is [brand] new wine put into old wineskins; if it is, the skins burst, and the wine is spilled, and the skins are destroyed; but new wine {ne/on} is put into [re]fresh[ed] {kainou/$} wineskins, and so both are preserved."

Even the word “new” in our own expressive usage has to be
qualified. For example: -

the statement, “This is my new car.” Could be understood to mean either,
“This is my {brand} new car.” Or
“This is my new {second hand} car.”

So it is with the Greek Bible, we have to consider the circumstances and context of the language used for the word and the modifiers used in conjunction with the word. Our understanding of the “new Covenant” is just one example of that.

References to New Covenant

1 Matthew 26:27-28: - {blank}

And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, "Drink of it, all of you; for this is my blood of the {new} covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins

The expression “new covenant” is not found in all English translation of the Bible for this passage and is not present in the Greek Translation of the New Testament. It has been added to some translations to reflect the Theological understanding of the translators of that time.

2 Mark 14:24-25: - {blank}

And he said to them, "This is my blood of the {new} covenant, which is poured out for many.

The expression “new covenant” is not found in all English translation of the Bible for this passage and is not present in the Greek Translation of the New Testament. It has been added to some translations to reflect the Theological understanding of the translators of that time.

3 Luke 22:20: - [kainh]}

And likewise the cup after supper, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant12 in my blood.
Again the word “new” as translated here should be “made new” As Jesus came initially for the Jewish people. A better translation for me is: -

“This cup which is poured out for you is the covenant made new [refreshed] in my blood.

4 1 Corinthians 11:25: - [ kainh]}

In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me."

Again for me the better translation is: -

This cup is the covenant made new in my blood”

5 2 Corinthians 3:6: - [kainh=$]

who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not in a written code but in the Spirit; for the written code kills, but the Spirit gives life.
The same argument can be mad here: -

Who made us competent to be ministers of the covenant made new,”

6 Hebrews 8:8: - [kainh/n]

For he finds fault with them when he says:
"The days will come, says the Lord,
when I will establish a new covenant with the
house of Israel
and with the house of Judah;

This verse is a reference to Jeremiah 31:31 and a better translation based on the Greek word “kainh/n” is

The days will come, says the Lord,
when I will make with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah
a renewed covenant;


7 Hebrews 8:13: ["Kainh\n"]

In speaking of a new {covenant}13 he treats the first as obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

A better translation of this verse is: -

In speaking of a “renewed” [covenant] he treats the former as obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

To understand this verse we should consider the following parable: -

A man and a woman enter into a marriage covenant and after a number of years the woman leaves the man and goes to live in another house and another and another. The man loves his wife very much and he does not divorce her but he wisely begins to court his wife and to draw her back. After a period of time the husband and the wife reconcile the relationship and the wife once more appreciates and loves her husband. When the man and the woman begin to live again as husband and wife they renew their marriage covenant, which they had made initially, but the renewed marriage covenant they made was slightly different from their previous covenant.

As the years passed the former marriage covenant they had made became obsolete and the renewed marriage covenant came to the for in their lives.14

Confirming Old Testament scripture passages:-

Isaiah 54:5-85 For your Maker is your husband,
the LORD of hosts is his name;
and the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer,
the God of the whole earth he is called.
For the LORD has called you
like a wife forsaken and grieved in spirit,
like a wife of youth when she is cast off,
says your God.
For a brief moment I forsook you,
but with great compassion I will gather you.

In overflowing wrath for a moment
I hid my face from you,

but with everlasting love I will have compassion on
you,
says the LORD, your Redeemer.

Hosea 2:16-20: - 16 "And in that day, says the LORD,
you will call me, `My husband,' and no longer will you
call me, `My Baal.' 17 For I will remove the names of
the Baals from her mouth, and they shall be mentioned
by name no more. 18 And I will make for you a covenant
on that day with the beasts of the field, the birds of
the air, and the creeping things of the ground; and I
will abolish the bow, the sword, and war from the
land; and I will make you lie down in safety. 19 And I
will betroth you to me forever; I will betroth you to
me in righteousness and in justice, in steadfast love,
and in mercy. 20 I will betroth you to me in
faithfulness; and you shall know the LORD.

8 Hebrews 9:15: - [kainh=$]

Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred which redeems them from the transgressions under the first covenant.

A better understanding of the this verse is gained if it is translated as: -

And for this reason He is the Mediator of the covenant made new, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first testament/covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

9 Hebrews 12:24: - [ne/a$]

and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks more graciously than the blood of Abel.

The word “new” here is translated from “neo” which has the meaning of “brand new” and this is the only time it is found in a verse in the New Testament where the word covenant is also found in close proximity. A better translation is: -

“And to Jesus the new mediator of the covenant, …”

Conclusion

The references quoted above suggest that there has been no “new” covenant undertaking by God and that the language used in the Bible confirms this understanding. Jesus himself, as quoted by the New Testament writers, did not state that he was ushering in a new covenant but that he was fulfilling the existing covenant and Law that had previously been written by Moses and the Prophets.

We cannot claim that the Law has been done away with, only that the Law has been fulfilled through Christ’s first visitation here on earth.
We cannot claim that the Law no longer applies to us because of a supposed “New Covenant” which we claim has done away with the Law if no “New Covenant” has been established.

As such the Law still applies but God enables us to keep the Law through his grace as we rely on Him to help us to comply with the Law, as we are unable to keep the Law in our own strength. As we believe in Him whom he has sent and continue to receive his grace so we are made whole and acceptable and are judged as righteous like Abraham and become of his seed.


Footnotes______________________________
1 Matthew 6:14-15, Mark 11:25 and Matthew 18:23-35
2 Matthew 5:21-22: - 21 "You have heard that it was said to
the men of old, `You shall not kill; and whoever kills
shall be liable to judgment.' 22 But I say to you that
every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to
judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to
the council, and whoever says, `You fool!' shall be liable
to the hell of fire.
3 Ezekiel 33:6: - But if the watchman sees the sword coming
and does not blow the trumpet, so that the people are not
warned, and the sword comes, and takes any one of them;
that man is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood I
will require at the watchman's hand.
4 Matthew 5:27-28: - 27 "You have heard that it was said,
`You shall not commit adultery.' 28 But I say to you that
every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already
committed adultery with her in his heart.
5 John 3:16-21: - 16 For God so loved the world that he gave
his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not
perish but have eternal life. 17 For God sent the Son into
the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world
might be saved through him. 18 He who believes in him is
not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned
already, because he has not believed in the name of the
only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment, that the
light has come into the world, and men loved darkness
rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For
every one who does evil hates the light, and does not come
to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he
who does what is true comes to the light, that it may be
clearly seen that his deeds have been wrought in God.
6 The Hebrew word used here is “<ym!y`” and The Online Bible
Thayer's Greek Lexicon and Brown Driver & Briggs Hebrew
Lexicon gives the following definition: -
OT:3117 - yowm -- day, time, year
1. a day (as opposed to night)
2. a day (24 hour period)
a. as defined by evening and morning in Gen 1
b. as a division of time; a working day, a day's journey
3. days, lifetime (plural)
4. time, period (general)
5. year
6. temporal references
a. today
b. yesterday
c. tomorrow
The language suggests that God is referring to some event
in the future, which raises the question as to our
understanding as to when God intended this particular event
to take place. We must consider whether or not this
prophecy has been or is still to be fulfilled. My
suspicion is that it is still to happen some time into
man’s future but that that time is rapidly approaching.
7 The Hebrew word used here is “hv*d*j&” and Biblesoft's New
Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance suggests that
it’s meaning is: - OT:2318: - chadash (khaw-dash'); a
primitive root; to be new; causatively, to rebuild: KJV -
renew, repair, which suggests that God intends to restore
his Covenant from the beginning with man with some changes.
8 God had already told the Israelite people that the Law was
within their hearts so that the writing of the Law on their
hearts was not a new thing.
Deuteronomy 30:11-20: - 11 "For this commandment which I
command you this day is not too hard for you, neither is it
far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, `Who
will go up for us to heaven, and bring it to us, that we
may hear it and do it?' 13 Neither is it beyond the sea,
that you should say, `Who will go over the sea for us, and
bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?' 14 But the
word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your
heart, so that you can do it.
15 "See, I have set before you this day life and good,
death and evil. 16 If you obey the commandments of the
LORD your God which I command you this day, by loving the
LORD your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his
commandments and his statutes and his ordinances, then you
shall live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless
you in the land which you are entering to take possession
of it. 17 But if your heart turns away, and you will not
hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve
them, 18 I declare to you this day, that you shall perish;
you shall not live long in the land which you are going
over the Jordan to enter and possess. 19 I call heaven and
earth to witness against you this day, that I have set
before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore
choose life, that you and your descendants may live, 20
loving the LORD your God, obeying his voice, and cleaving
to him; for that means life to you and length of days, that
you may dwell in the land which the LORD swore to your
fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them."
9 Ezekiel 34:22-26: - 22 I will save my flock, they shall no
longer be a prey; and I will judge between sheep and sheep.
23 And I will set up over them one shepherd, my servant
David, and he shall feed them: he shall feed them and be
their shepherd. 24 And I, the LORD, will be their God, and
my servant David shall be prince among them; I, the LORD,
have spoken.
25 "I will make with them a covenant of peace and banish
wild beasts from the land, so that they may dwell securely
in the wilderness and sleep in the woods. 26 And I will
make them and the places round about my hill a blessing;
and I will send down the showers in their season; they
shall be showers of blessing.
10 Ezekiel 20:33: - "As I live, says the Lord GOD, surely with
a mighty hand and an outstretched arm, and with wrath
poured out, I will be king over you.
11 Note that in the two previous verses Jesus suggested that
the Jewish people did not have the means to even attempt to
rebuild the temple, with a hint that they should not even
attempt such a project as He was the only one that could
rebuild it.
12 The words “Covenant” and “Testament” are interchangeable
here.
13 The word covenant is omitted from the Greek text but has
been added to the English translations to make the intended
meaning of the verse more clear to reflect the context of
what is written.
14 This parable came to me while starting to teach on this
subject to the people in Dhading, Nepal and I believe it
encapsulates the intent of the above verse well. It also
draws from imagery within the Old Testament, which has been
included in this document.
jay
 
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