joelstrumpet

I was thinking about the long and protracted banter that went on here regarding 'The Law', 'Grace' and Old vs New Testament thinking.

This http://members.aol.com/skettler/gmswm.html is a free online book that gets to the root of the issue and (I believe) settles many issues scripturally. Please consider reading this book as a child rather than as one who is 'wise and intelligent'. It is indeed the secret that has been hidden (Ma 11:25) and Jesus Christ is 'the way'. Note that when He says come to me' in Ma 11 there is a promise in Ma 11:29. That is a direct quote from Jer 6:16. Please read the Jeremiah scripture and ask what He begs us to ask.

I read some of the website. However, I was left with questions. Most of which entail the difference between how the bible defines several words. Some of these words are "justification", "sanctification", and "glorification".

To me this was not an article on what the bible says on these very important subjects, but rather a redefining what these terms mean toward "law keeping". It starts with the assumption that "law keeping" is the form of "godliness" that is expected from a christian. That somehow the sanctification process is the means that cleanses the person from his sins and keeps them from it as well. This sanctification process involves learning to keep the "law". Or even to preparing oneself to "keep the law".

I , dunno, I read the piece and came away with an altogether different idea of the gospel of Christ then I get from reading the scriptures. Most importantly the Pauline epistles.

Should not someone who wants to teach truth follow the logic of Paul, rather then a different logic? If they use a different logic, is it an altogether different gospel of Christ, which Paul warned us about? It does not have the ring of truth to it as outlined in the NT.

Also, it seems as though the book misses the point Paul relayed to his readers about glorification. The book doesn't even touch on the verse from Romans 8 in which we learn that after we are called and receive our redemption and salvation, we have already been justified and glorified. (Yes, in the past tense!!!)

God looks on us as glorified and blameless. How else could He look at His children?

Rom. 8:30 - And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Glorification isn't simply a state that we attain once we receive our glorified bodies at the resurrection, it is a gift of God that He has already poured out on His followers.

Bonjour dear friends !

Perdonado, you state :

God looks on us as glorified and blameless. How else could He look at His children?

Can I ask you a question, then?

OK, so now He looks on us as glorified and blameless (which I agree), what do you think He expects from us?

A- Sit down and rest on our laurels.
B- Do as our hearts please.
C- Follow His Instructions.

Well, personally, I follow His instructions/Torah/Commandments, because I know my Master did!

And because I love Him so, I just want to please Him by doing what He expects me to. And I love it!!!

It's all about love, my friend!

“IF you keep My commandments, you shall abide in My love, even as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.” (John 15:10)

“He who has My commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves Me. And he who loves Me shall be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will reveal Myself to him.” (John 14:21)

Bonjour Donna! It's been a long time!!!

Are you still on the same agenda, implying that Paul teachings are against the Torah?

By reading your quote below, it looks like it

Should not someone who wants to teach truth follow the logic of Paul, rather then a different logic? If they use a different logic, is it an altogether different gospel of Christ, which Paul warned us about? It does not have the ring of truth to it as outlined in the NT.

According to you, was Paul's logic in accordance or in discordance with Yahweh's Instructions?

Did Paul love His Saviour?

“For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments.” (1 John 5:3a)

If Paul did not keep Abba's commandments, and taught against them, then he clearly did not love Yahweh! Right?!

Would the Creator of the whole universe give the task of writing His very Words to the world (half of the NT!), to a man who did not love Him?



And if we follow your reasoning (providing that you still hold your position that says that Paul was teaching against Torah!), according to our very King (who's coming back soon. Praise YHVH!!! ), Paul will be the least in the Kingdom (Mat 5.20)

I hope for him that you are mistaken on that one!

Could you be mistaken? Are you a good Berean?

Well, if yes, then check this Powerpoint presentation : http://www.wardsoft.net/lawandgrace/

I'll be curious to hear your comments

May Yahweh bless you and take you where He wants you to be.

FX

FX,

Its been a long time... The answer is obviously "C".

There is no doubt that the Bible teaches that we should obey the commands of God. (I think we had 300+ posts on that already )

Here is one verse for you to chew on...

1 Corinthians 10:23 (NASB) - All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful, but not all things edify.

None of us are perfect. I hope you realize that. If we were made perfect after becoming a "new creation", then there would be no reason for all of the scripture on spiritual growth.

Re-bonjour Perdonado,

None of us are perfect. I hope you realize that.

I sure do!

If we were made perfect after becoming a "new creation", then there would be no reason for all of the scripture on spiritual growth.

I agree with you!

Praise YHVH that we can drink from His Holy Words as much as we want!It feeds His Spirit inside of us. Delicious

Be blessed,

FX

FX,


I am not going to get into another unprofitable debate with you. All I will say is that it is hard for a person who is still glorifing the flesh(doing the works of the law) to understand how "living in the spirit" fulfills the law".

Dear Donna,

I'm afraid, you miss the whole point

It is not about works, it is about LOVE. Please re-read what our King says in John 14.21 and 15.10

Of the New Covenant we have with Yeshua, Abba says : "I will put My Law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people". Jer 31.33

If I have on my heart to obey YHVH it is because I love Him. Nothing to do with glorifying the flesh!!!

Well, all I can do do is pray for you so that Abba will enlighten you on this important issue. Love.

“Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not LOVE, I have become as sounding brass or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have prophecies, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so as to move mountains, and do not have LOVE, I am nothing. And though I give out all my goods to feed the poor, and though I deliver my body to be burned, and have not LOVE, I am profited nothing.” (1 Corinthians 13:1-3)

May our Heavenly Father bless you.

FX

FX,

Let me ask this one question. Are you Circumsised in the flesh?

Yes, Madame

Were you circumsised as a baby? Or did you get circumsised due to your faith in Christ?

Donna, you are a curious Lady!



I was saved two and a half years ago and was circumcised a year and a half ago, after Abba put on my heart to do it.

Together with the observance of the shabbat, circumcision is the eternal token for all the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

I am both a spiritual and a physical (although there is no way for me to prove it! I can only have the conviction in my heart ) descendant of Abraham.

And just like my great great great...great great grandfather, I obey YHVH's voice, keep His charge, His commandments, His statutes, and His Laws.

Should not we all do

Yahweh to Abraham : "I will make your seed to multiply as the stars of the heavens, and will give to your seed all these lands. And in your Seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My Laws".

May He bless you too.

FX

FX,

al 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.


Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.


Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

What statues, commandments and Laws did Abraham obey? Didn't the Law of Moses come 400 years later?

Back to the book. If you'll take the time to read it, you'll see that it was written by a Presbyterian minister in 1629 or so. He goes into great detail on the essence of faith and faith alone as the source of our justification. He also goes into great detail on what justification is and the results. I can't see how anyone that takes the time to read it can say that he doesn't go by the book with Romans.

It's all about His grace and mercy to bring us to Him, give us the faith to believe him, give us His grace to cry out to him in humility strictly by His grace and to bring us to the fulness of ALL of who He is. When we receive Jesus Christ (assuming we have bothered to verbalize that actual need rather than just giving mental assent) we are 'given' life from death. And with that awakening we are able to understand things through the Spirit that we were never able to understand in carnal flesh.

Like Love, Patience, Kindness, Gentleness, Longsuffering...rather than trying to 'think ourselves as something when we are nothing thus deceiving ourselves' I think I'd rather just be a humble servant.

Humility is the key and that's what the whole book is about.

Eagle,

I am not sure that he defined hmself like that. Here is a quote, what do you suppose he means by this?

Take notice farther that the law, which is your mark, is exceeding broad (Ps. 119:96) and yet not the more easy to be hit, because you must aim to hit it, in every duty of it, with a performance of equal breadth, or else you cannot hit it at a

Bonjour Eagle,

Sorry for straying away from the book

Please, allow me to come back to Donna's points...

Dear Donna, shalom,

Did not we address these topics already?

Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

I agree with what the following brother has to say on the issue:

The circumcision Rav Shaul forbids is not the penis, which is the eternal token to all the male Israelite offspring of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob! Rather he forbids non-Israelites from being or becoming or converting to the nation of the circumcision, as a prerequisite for salvation.

In other words, the Galatian heresy was that Jewish believers were telling returning Ephraimites and non-Israelites that THEY WERE NOT OR COULD NEVER BE SAVED BY FAITH ALONE, without an outward act of physical circumcision or physically becoming part of the Jewish nation via some conversion process!

This was and still is heresy and is addressed by Rav Shaul, since the gospel is to "whosoever will." To prove that this is the correct application, Rav Shaul would be a major hypocrite, if he told non-Israelite and returning Ephraimite believers not to be penis circumcised, when he himself physically circumcised Timothy, who was not an Israelite in Acts 16:1-3. Therefore, if he did what he supposedly told the Galatians not to do, then he was a hypocrite of the highest order, who did not write under inspiration. Since you and I know that not to be the case, it must be our initial misunderstanding of what he is teaching, that lies as the problem of arriving at our faulty conclusions.

What statues, commandments and Laws did Abraham obey? Didn't the Law of Moses come 400 years later?

“For I am YHVH, I change not". (Malachi 3:6a)

“Jesus Christ the same yesterday and today and forever.” (Hebrews 13:8 )

Although the Torah was written down a long time after Abraham’s time, it was there since the very beginning. Abba changes not. You should remember this! His Torah, that is His very WORDS have been here since the beginning. It was written on stones at one point in time. At another point in time, it was manifested in the flesh (YESHUA), and it will be valid for ever.

Now, you and I have been given free will. We are free to believe the above or not. We can choose between following our own hearts or our Heavenly Father’s very instructions.

That’s what I do because I love Him And I tell you all these things, because I love you too!

Be blessed!

Shabbat shalom

FX

Prove that the written law came before Moses. Didn't Abraham marry his half sister? Is this not against the written law?

This was and still is heresy and is addressed by Rav Shaul, since the gospel is to "whosoever will." To prove that this is the correct application, Rav Shaul would be a major hypocrite, if he told non-Israelite and returning Ephraimite believers not to be penis circumcised, when he himself physically circumcised Timothy, who was not an Israelite in Acts 16:1-3. Therefore, if he did what he supposedly told the Galatians not to do, then he was a hypocrite of the highest order, who did not write under inspiration. Since you and I know that not to be the case, it must be our initial misunderstanding of what he is teaching, that lies as the problem of arriving at our faulty conclusions.

I do not have the time this weekend(being a holiday weekend) I am going to start a thread on Galatians. It shoud prove interesting.

Donna, Donna

Didn't Abraham marry his half sister? Is this not against the written law?

Yeah! And even worse! what about Adams sons? Did not they marry their sisters?

Prove that the written law came before Moses.

Donna, do you believe in what Yahweh says?

Yahweh to Abraham: Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My Laws (Genesis 26.5)

Even a child would understand that if Abraham obeyed YHVH' charges, YHVH's commandments, YHVH's statutes and YHVH's laws, he had to be aware of them...long before Moises wrote them down.

May YHVH enlighten you!



FX

FX,

Yes, I do believe what he says, the only problem is what you claim and what he says is not necessarily the same thing. God said this, "Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My Laws (Genesis 26.5)". If the laws, statutes, and commandments that Abraham kept were the same as the "Law of Moses" then Abraham didn't keep them, for he Married his half sister.

And as you pointed out so did the offspring of Adam and Eve. What was acceptable to them later became unacceptable, did it not? So, did they have the same "laws, statutes, and commandments? If something was ok at one point why is it not acceptable now if the law never changes?

Using cultic techniques do not work on me. I do believe what God says. I just do not necessarily believe the way you would have me believe it. Therefore you have not proven anything.

Donna donna

Yes, I do believe what he says, the only problem is what you claim and what he says is not necessarily the same thing.

Well, my friend, so far the main issue that we have been discussing is the one regarding YHVH's commandments!

All I have said is that I love YHVH and I love His commandments.

What He says is "if you love Me, keep My commandments" (direct quote from our King in John 14.15)

Now if you think that what I claim and what He says on the Torah issue, is not necessarily the same, well, there isn't much more I can do for you ...

...But pray He opens your eyes

May Yahweh bless you and reveal to you His truth.

FX

Now if you think that what I claim and what He says on the Torah issue, is not necessarily the same, well, there isn't much more I can do for you ...

...But pray He opens your eyes

And if he has opened my eyes, just not with your understanding?

If I love my neighbour as myself am I not obeying his commandments? Which commandments would you have me do in addition to this one? Is it not written, that "Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."

And if he has opened my eyes, just not with your understanding?

John 14.15 "If you love Me, keep My commandmentS"

Are there several possible understandings to the above statement?

Looks pretty plain to me!

Donna, do you keep the 10 commandments All of them Including the Shabbat

If yes, good. If not, not good

I'm just assuming : if you tell me that you go to church on Sunday, because for you shabbat has been moved to Sunday, or that shabbat is every day; well whatever you may think or say, you are clearly breaking the 4th commandment. (Remember what James 2.10 has to say about breaking only one commandment...)

You are not obeying Yahweh who tells all His children to rest on Saturday.

Providing your mode of thinking is in accordance with the above (which is what the majority of Christianity still think and follow), then you will never be able to love your neighbor, the way YHVH wants you to love him!

As simple as that!

Either you follow His Instructions which will lead you to be being able to apply the kind of love He wants. Or you don't!

Yah bless,

FX

FX,

Is Paul wrong when he says this?

"Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."

Here is what Strong's Lexicon says about fulfilled.

1) to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full
a) to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally
1) I abound, I am liberally supplied
2) to render full, i.e. to complete
a) to fill to the top: so that nothing shall be wanting to full measure, fill to the brim
b) to consummate: a number
1) to make complete in every particular, to render perfect
2) to carry through to the end, to accomplish, carry out, (some undertaking)
c) to carry into effect, bring to realisation, realise
1) of matters of duty: to perform, execute
2) of sayings, promises, prophecies, to bring to pass, ratify, accomplish
3) to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment

If this is not correct, then why would Paul say it? What I hear you saying is that Paul is incorrect because the law is not fulfilled in "loving thy neighbour as thyself.

I'm just assuming : if you tell me that you go to church on Sunday, because for you shabbat has been moved to Sunday, or that shabbat is every day; well whatever you may think or say, you are clearly breaking the 4th commandment. (Remember what James 2.10 has to say about breaking only one commandment...)

You are not obeying Yahweh who tells all His children to rest on Saturday.

Providing your mode of thinking is in accordance with the above (which is what the majority of Christianity still think and follow), then you will never be able to love your neighbor, the way YHVH wants you to love him!

Now the spiritual pride is showing. Somehow you Love God and your neighbour more then I because you rest on Saturday. Do not make any assumptions about me, ok? I do honor God's sabbath rest, for is not Jesus our Sabbath rest? Is he not the "word made flesh"?

Hbr 4:9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Hbr 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God [did] from his.
Hbr 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Have you entered into your rest? If not, why not?

My dear sister,

Amongst other facets, love is patient and hopes all things. I hope you will understand what Abba is trying to show you.

Please take your time to read again the exchanges we had on the above issue in the "Law" threads. You will find al the answer to your questions.

Do not make any assumptions about me, ok?

I apologize if I said anything that offended you.

I wish you a nice shabbat shalom.

May YHVH bless and keep you.

FX

FX,

You do seem to look at things differently than the rest of us, especially when it comes to following basic reasoning.

For example:

You said:

All I have said is that I love YHVH and I love His commandments.

But you also said:

Although the Torah was written down a long time after Abraham’s time, it was there since the very beginning. Abba changes not. You should remember this! Wink His Torah, that is His very WORDS have been here since the beginning. It was written on stones at one point in time. At another point in time, it was manifested in the flesh (YESHUA), and it will be valid for ever.

Now, you and I have been given free will. We are free to believe the above or not. We can choose between following our own hearts or our Heavenly Father’s very instructions.

That’s what I do because I love Him Very Happy And I tell you all these things, because I love you too!

You don't "just love" His commandments. That is not "all" you are saying. You say that you have "to follow" all of these laws and commandments also.

Please be consistent. You don't keep all of the commandments. You simply can't do it. None of us can. Once you realize and acknowledge that, then we have a common starting point to build on. I feel that I can speak for every believer here in saying that we all love God's commandments.

But you can't acknowledge and address the issue of Abraham and his half sister and Adam and Eves offspring. I think what is soooooo frustrating is the fact that you just skirt around the issues and don't directly acknowledge that there isn't a single person that can live up to the standards that God lays out for us by simply keeping the law. To respond by laughingly pointing out the point about Adams sons marrying their sisters is frustrating. Did they follow God's laws or not?

FX,

No offense taken, just clarification. You are right, Love is patient, and always hopes. Do not forget that Love doesn't delight in evil, but rejoices with the truth.

Perhaps it is you that needs to reread our threads.

Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter.

I love God and fulfill the law by Loving my neighbour and I also enter into God's rest. Is this not the "spirit of the Law"? Is not "attempting to obey" The Mosaic Law living in the "oldness of the letter"?

2Cr 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin [was] dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which [was ordained] to life, I found [to be] unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew [me].

Does not the letter of the law bring forth death? Is that not the purpose of the Law? To bring forth death, so we see a need for Christ?

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

So, which way should we live? In the Newness of the Spirit of the Law? Or in the Old Letter of the Law?

This person wants to grab ahold of the "Spirit" for I love God and his entire creation. I will not lay hold of the "letter of the law" for then sin will revive and kill me all over again. I will not continue to lay the foundation of repentance from dead works.

Hbr 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

So, you see for I believe that the attempt to obey the Mosaic Law(Torah) is just that, laying the foundation of repentance.

Bonjour Perdonado, Shabbat shalom!

You don't "just love" His commandments. That is not "all" you are saying. You say that you have "to follow" all of these laws and commandments also.

I believe that Abba wants us to follow the 10 commandments. This being the minimum where to start!

If you have all of the 613 commandments in mind, as much as one would want to follow them, it is impossible! Our King did not follow all of these commandments. Some are for women; others are for priests, other for married couples etc.

I never implied that we had to follow all of the 613 commandments, did I?

Please be consistent. You don't keep all of the commandments. You simply can't do it. None of us can.

If you mean the list of 613, I fully agree with you! If you mean the 10 commandments, I disagree with you!

Once you realize and acknowledge that, then we have a common starting point to build on.

Great!

But you can't acknowledge and address the issue of Abraham and his half sister and Adam and Eves offspring.

Here’s what comes to my mind when I think about the above issues (I’m not saying I’m correct, but at least I try to answer):

Abraham marrying his half sister. He was living in a pagan country at the time of Nimrod where false deities and corruption were rampant. Living in such society I guess he married according to the customs of the time. That was long before Yahweh revealed Himself to him.

Adam and Eve’s offspring. Well, what else could they do, knowing that they had to procreate and fill the world?
I guess Yahweh allowed it at the beginning because there was no other way…

Did they follow God's laws or not?

Do you mean Adam and Eve?

Sadly for us, they were the first ones to break the Torah! We’re paying the expenses up until this very day!!!

Moses said of the Torah ordinances: “keep and do them, for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes and say, surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people” (Deut 4.5-6)

Donna,

Our forefather Abraham kept the spirit of the Torah before the letter was given to Moses.

If we are filled with the Holy Spirit, then we should follow the commandments by the spirit, not by the letter. ..

Now, does that mean that we are allowed to break the 4th commandment?

I personally do not think so.

Does that mean we can ignore YHVH's Feasts and celebrate pagan ones?

I personally do not think so.

Does that mean we can eat things He says are an abomination to Him?

I personally do not think so.

As a matter of fact, Yeshua observed the above to the letter. What about mainstream Christianity?

Sadly the answer is a resounding NO.

What then do you make of the following?

"He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk even as He walked" 1 Jo 2.6

These are some of the questions I address. Are you going to ignore them as usual?

Don't you think our Father would rejoice if He saw His children obey Him by doing the above 3 things?

I personally think He would! But that's just me!

Yah bless ya'll

FX