joelstrumpet

Donna · by **Donna** on Sat Jul 05, 2008 6:26 pm

FX,

You have failed to address my post, until then there is nothing to discuss.

As to keeping torah today? It is not possible because there are no priests doing sacrifices.

Donna · by **Donna** on Sat Jul 05, 2008 6:35 pm

Maybe if we start with something simple.

Define "letter of the law".

Define "spirit of the law".

FX · by FX on Sun Jul 06, 2008 8:52 am

Dear Donna,

You're funny :lol:

As usual, everytime I ask questions, you never address them! :lol:

I've got a little quiz for you! :wink:

In Matthiew 5.19 what does Yeshua tell those who break one commandment of the Torah and teach men to do so:

A- They shall receive a reward and a crown?
B- They shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven?
C- They shall be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven?
D- They shall be told "I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity"?

Where do you stand, Donna? :roll:

May Yahweh bless and teach you.

FX

Donna · by **Donna** on Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:33 am

FX, as usual, you forgot to answer my questions. But, let me say this. I tell people to live by the spirit of the law.

The answer is C.

Now tell me do I fulfill the law by loving my neighbour as myself?

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

What does it mean to fulfill something?

Here is what Strong's concordence says

1) to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full
a) to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally
1) I abound, I am liberally supplied
2) to render full, i.e. to complete
a) to fill to the top: so that nothing shall be wanting to full measure, fill to the brim
b) to consummate: a number
1) to make complete in every particular, to render perfect
2) to carry through to the end, to accomplish, carry out, (some undertaking)
c) to carry into effect, bring to realisation, realise
1) of matters of duty: to perform, execute
2) of sayings, promises, prophecies, to bring to pass, ratify, accomplish
3) to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment

Donna · by **Donna** on Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:38 am

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Has not the Law been fulfilled upon the death and resurrection of Jesus?

Does Jesus say,

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

Did Jesus FULFILL the LAW?

FX · by FX on Sun Jul 06, 2008 12:57 pm

Re-bonjour Donna,

The answer is C.

Correct answer !

But, let me say this. I tell people to live by the spirit of the law.

Good, but does the spirit of the law gives you the freedom to break one of the least of the Torah commandments? :roll:

(Let’s take for instance the 4th, since it is the most broken one amongst mainstream Sunday Christians)

Remember, according to our King, those who do so shall be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven...

FX, as usual, you forgot to answer my questions.

Here we go then! :wink:

Now tell me do I fulfill the law by loving my neighbour as myself?

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

The above verse is a summation of the Spirit behind the true Torah, and not some sort of licence to neglect the rest of the Law, as Yeshua personally warned us about in Matthew 5.17-19.

So if you tell me that you do not obey some of the commandments (for instance the 4th ,which is crucial since it is the very sign between the Father and His children!), but nonetheless, according to you, you love you neighbour like yourself, well in YHVH’s eyes, I am sure that you fail in your task. You do not love your neighbours THE WAY He wants you to love them, and besides, you will be the least in the kingdom. :cry:

Quote:

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Has not the Law been fulfilled upon the death and resurrection of Jesus?

Not the way you think it has!

Have heaven and earth passed yet? :roll:

No! Therefore not one jot or one title shall by any mean pass from the Torah.

That is why, if one does not want to be least in the kingdom, he still needs to obey the commandments! Including shabbat! :wink:

Does Jesus say,
Quote:

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

Did Jesus FULFILL the LAW?

Not the way you think He has!

A better rendering of the above verse is the following: “Think not that I am come to weaken or destroy the Torah, or the prophets, but to completely reveal it in its intended fullness” RSTNE

Yeshua then goes on to explain to us what is the Law intended fullness, by giving us two clear examples with murder and adultery.

I hope I have addressed your questions?

Can I ask again, Donna: in regards to Matthew 5.19, where do you stand? :roll:

Hav a nice and blessed day.

FX

Donna · by **Donna** on Sun Jul 06, 2008 5:51 pm

FX,

Till all be fulfilled. Has some of the law pass? What about sacrifices? Are we to do animal sacrifices? Do you stone people for breaking certain commandments?

FX · by FX on Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:03 pm

FX,

Till all be fulfilled. Has some of the law pass? What about sacrifices? Are we to do animal sacrifices? Do you stone people for breaking certain commandments?

Here we go...again!!! :cry:

Donna, Donna!

Do you do it on purpose or do you really have difficulties understanding what has already been said over and over again? :roll:

Today, there is no Temple, no Sanhedrin, not theocracy where Torah is the applicable Law! Why would you want some of it to be applied in our society? :roll:

Be patient! :wink:

Wait till our King returns! Then you can be 100% sure that Torah will be applicable. Yes, even the stoning!

Blessings from France!

FX

PS : So? In regards to Matthew 5.19, where do you stand??? :roll:

Donna · by **Donna** on Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:25 pm

FX,

So, then you are a law breaker!

And you want me to follow your example?

I do not have a problem understanding what you say. I just disagree with it.

David · by **David** on Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:57 pm

I know the verse if you love me follow my commandments. I will out of love for the Lord not because I need the work for salvation. I also know I cannot fufill them all as I do not even know all of them. But out of all of those I was also told there is none greater than to love one another. This I can do though even that is sometimes not easy for me.

I think about that man hanging next to Jesus on a cross, he was thief a murderer. This man followed no laws or commandments other than his own his whole life. Because of that he found himself hanging on a tree too punishment for lawlessness and was lost up until that time when he knew the Lord who was next to him on that hill. What opportunity did he have to do His commandments? Yet is he not now with the Lord in heaven?

Salvation by grace alone

FX · by FX on Tue Jul 08, 2008 9:39 am

FX,

So, then you are a law breaker!

Well, you are free to believe it! :roll:

And you want me to follow your example?

I’m just trying to catch your attention on what YHVH wants from you. He loves you (so do I!). He does not want you to follow me. :roll:

He wants you to follow His Son, who loves you too and would rather see you walk on the right path rather than on the wrong one.

Remember, one path leads to glory, one leads to perdition.

Don’t you think a loving Father would want to attract your attention? This is what He does through people like me…

I do not have a problem understanding what you say. I just disagree with it.

That is your choice, my friend, and I respect it.

Allow me to share with you the following which I have just read on a website.

How do we know if we worship the right deity?

Let's look at a few points that identify Yahweh's Messiah.

• He came in his Father's name.
• His Father's name is Yahweh.
• His Father's name was in his.
• Salvation is found in no other name (Yahshua - the salvation of Yahweh).
• He kept the commandments of Yahweh and Torah.
• He did not come to destroy the Torah.
• He kept the Shabbat/Sabbath.
• The keeping of the Shabbat is a sign between Yahweh and His people forever.
• He kept the clean food laws. He never ate pork.
• He kept Yahweh's Feasts.
• He came to seek out and save the lost sheep of the House of Israel.
• He was in the grave 3 days and 3 nights. (The sign of Jonah).
• He was born during the Feast of Tabernacles.
• He will return and every eye will see him.
• His bride is Israel.

Then whose Messiah does the following identify?

• He came in his own name.
• His Father is called "The Lord" or "Baal".
• His Father's name is probably in his name, but it's not Yahweh.
• Salvation is not found in his name.
• He did away with the Torah (law).
• He is the Torahless (lawless) one.
• His followers do not keep the Shabbat, but keep Sunday instead.
• The keeping of Sunday is a sign between "The Lord?" and his people?
• His followers say he abolished the clean/unclean food laws.
• His followers eat pork.
• His followers keep pagan feasts instead.
• His followers believe they have replaced Israel.
• He was in the grave from Friday evening to Sunday morning (1 ½ days).
• He was born on Dec. 25 (same as Tammuz the sun god).
• He will come in a secret rapture.
• His bride is the "church".

The first set identifies Yahshua, the true Messiah.
The second set identifies the false Messiah.

The choice is yours, who will you worship?

Who Do You Worship, Donna? :roll:

May Yahweh draws you closer to the truth, and may He bless you.

FX

Donna · by **Donna** on Tue Jul 08, 2008 10:16 am

FX,

Correction, You are trying to catch my attention to what you want from Me not God.

I worship the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. I worship him in spirit and in truth.

I follow him the way he wants me to follow him. The way it is outlined in the NT.

I can't help it if we see it differently.

Donna · by **Donna** on Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:25 am

FX,

I have been patient with you. However, when you start this nonsense, I will complain loudly.

Then whose Messiah does the following identify?

• He came in his own name.
• His Father is called "The Lord" or "Baal".
• His Father's name is probably in his name, but it's not Yahweh.
• Salvation is not found in his name.
• He did away with the Torah (law).
• He is the Torahless (lawless) one.
• His followers do not keep the Shabbat, but keep Sunday instead.
• The keeping of Sunday is a sign between "The Lord?" and his people?
• His followers say he abolished the clean/unclean food laws.
• His followers eat pork.
• His followers keep pagan feasts instead.
• His followers believe they have replaced Israel.
• He was in the grave from Friday evening to Sunday morning (1 ½ days).
• He was born on Dec. 25 (same as Tammuz the sun god).
• He will come in a secret rapture.
• His bride is the "church".

The first set identifies Yahshua, the true Messiah.
The second set identifies the false Messiah.

The choice is yours, who will you worship?

FX · by FX on Tue Jul 08, 2008 2:29 pm

I worship the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. I worship him in spirit and in truth.

And yet you openly break the 4th commandment! What kind of truth is that? :roll:

Surely it cannot be YHVH’s, can it?!

I follow him the way he wants me to follow him. The way it is outlined in the NT

Does YHVH want His children to break His law? :roll:

Does not He say JUST the opposite all throughout the AT...and the NT? :roll:

Would the NT contradict the AT?

I have been patient with you. However, when you start this nonsense, I will complain loudly.

Nonsense?

Open your eyes, Donna! Isn’t it exactly what we see mainstream Sunday Christianity do? :roll:

I know someone who is laughing his head off :twisted:

YHVH have mercy...

FX

Donna · by **Donna** on Tue Jul 08, 2008 10:39 pm

FX,

It does appear as if we worship different God's. For you worship the law, but only your rendition of it. Certainly not the whole law, which you are obligated to do. You pick and choose which portion you want to keep and then somehow willy, nilly throw out the rest.

I am not laughing, for this subject is way to serious. I am deeply saddened that your eyes are so blinded by the law you can't comprehend what the Bible actually says. You have judged me a law breaker, but fail to realize that you will be judged by the same measure you have judged me, and you will be found wanting(read this as not doing the whole law)

Paul says in Galatian that you are obligated to do the whole law. James tells us that if you break one law you are guilty of breaking it all.

The whole law is not just the 10 commandments + the dietary laws. It encompasses much more then this. There is of course the ceremonial laws, and the cleansing laws.

But, of course it is not possible to keep the whole law today, and so you are of course a law breaker. Because all those laws that can't be done are being broken, daily, weekly and yearly. Even the feasts can't be done as outlined in Leviticus.
So, when you celebrate those feasts everyone of them are done wrong. For there is no Levite priesthood to make the required sacrifices. You pretend and puff yourself up with hubris, but the reality falls far short of the intended goal.

If you live by the law you shall be judged by the law. All I will say is ouch. You can't even talk about the law in truth. You lie about the law because then you would have to face the truth.

FX · by FX on Wed Jul 09, 2008 6:42 am

Donna, donna :roll:

If you search Him with all your heart, and ask Him to enlighten you on His Torah, He will :wink:

You will understand then that your current position is not only mistaken, but it directly contradicts His very Words.

“Your Word is true from the beginning; and every one of Your righteous judgments endures forever.” (Psalms 119:160)

I bless you my dear friend and I pray Yahweh, the One true Elohim opens your heart, your eyes and your ears.

FX

Donna · by **Donna** on Wed Jul 09, 2008 7:18 am

FX,

If you will be honest with yourself you will see that I am right. Let's take one chapter in the OT(Torah) and see how zealous for the law you actually are. For surely there must be some among you who qualify for the priesthood(Levits from the house of Aaron). How many of the highlighted texts do you as a group actually do? Are these not part of the jots and tittles that in no ways pass from the law? I highlighted one part in blue to show that these were to be done "a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings". I have not seen an exception clause. Perhaps you can point me to the exception clause.

Lev 23:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Lev 23:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, [Concerning] the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim [to be] holy convocations, [even] these [are] my feasts.
Lev 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day [is] the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work [therein]: it [is] the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.
Lev 23:4 These [are] the feasts of the LORD, [even] holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.
Lev 23:5 In the fourteenth [day] of the first month at even [is] the LORD'S passover.
Lev 23:6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month [is] the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.
Lev 23:7 In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.
Lev 23:8 But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD seven days: in the seventh day [is] an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work [therein].
Lev 23:9 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Lev 23:10 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest:
Lev 23:11 And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.
Lev 23:12 And ye shall offer that day when ye wave the sheaf an he lamb without blemish of the first year for a burnt offering unto the LORD.
Lev 23:13 And the meat offering thereof [shall be] two tenth deals of fine flour mingled with oil, an offering made by fire unto the LORD [for] a sweet savour: and the drink offering thereof [shall be] of wine, the fourth [part] of an hin.
Lev 23:14 And ye shall eat neither bread, nor parched corn, nor green ears, until the selfsame day that ye have brought an offering unto your God: [it shall be] a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.
Lev 23:15 And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete:
Lev 23:16 Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD.
Lev 23:17 Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals: they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; [they are] the firstfruits unto the LORD.
Lev 23:18 And ye shall offer with the bread seven lambs without blemish of the first year, and one young bullock, and two rams: they shall be [for] a burnt offering unto the LORD, with their meat offering, and their drink offerings, [even] an offering made by fire, of sweet savour unto the LORD.
Lev 23:19 Then ye shall sacrifice one kid of the goats for a sin offering, and two lambs of the first year for a sacrifice of peace offerings.
Lev 23:20 And the priest shall wave them with the bread of the firstfruits [for] a wave offering before the LORD, [colr=red]with the two lambs:[/color] they shall be holy to the LORD for the priest.
Lev 23:21 And ye shall proclaim on the selfsame day, [that] it may be an holy convocation unto you: ye shall do no servile work [therein: it shall be] a statute for ever in all your dwellings throughout your generations.
Lev 23:22 And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not make clean riddance of the corners of thy field when thou reapest, neither shalt thou gather any gleaning of thy harvest: thou shalt leave them unto the poor, and to the stranger: I [am] the LORD your God.
Lev 23:23 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Lev 23:24 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first [day] of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation.
Lev 23:25 Ye shall do no servile work [therein]: but ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD.
Lev 23:26 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Lev 23:27 Also on the tenth [day] of this seventh month [there shall be] a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD.
Lev 23:28 And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it [is] a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the LORD your God.
Lev 23:29 For whatsoever soul [it be] that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people.
Lev 23:30 And whatsoever soul [it be] that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people.
Lev 23:31 Ye shall do no manner of work: [it shall be] a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.
Lev 23:32 It [shall be] unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth [day] of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath.
Lev 23:33 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Lev 23:34 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, The fifteenth day of this seventh month [shall be] the feast of tabernacles [for] seven days unto the LORD.
Lev 23:35 On the first day [shall be] an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work [therein].
Lev 23:36 Seven days ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD: on the eighth day shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD: it [is] a solemn assembly; [and] ye shall do no servile work [therein].
Lev 23:37 These [are] the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim [to be] holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD, a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice, and drink offerings, every thing upon his day:
Lev 23:38 Beside the sabbaths of the LORD, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the LORD.
Lev 23:39 Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days: on the first day [shall be] a sabbath, and on the eighth day [shall be] a sabbath.
Lev 23:40 And ye shall take you on the first day the boughs of goodly trees, branches of palm trees, and the boughs of thick trees, and willows of the brook; and ye shall rejoice before the LORD your God seven days.
Lev 23:41 And ye shall keep it a feast unto the LORD seven days in the year. [It shall be] a statute for ever in your generations: ye shall celebrate it in the seventh month.
Lev 23:42 Ye shall dwell in booths seven days; all that are Israelites born shall dwell in booths:
Lev 23:43 That your generations may know that I made the children of Israel to dwell in booths, when I brought them out of the land of Egypt: I [am] the LORD your God.
Lev 23:44 And Moses declared unto the children of Israel the feasts of the LORD.

Donna · by **Donna** on Wed Jul 09, 2008 7:18 am

duplicate

FX · by FX on Wed Jul 09, 2008 8:29 am

Donna, donna :roll:

When will you open your ears, your eyes and your heart :?:

When will you understand that all throughout the Bible, sacrifices were only permitted in YHVH's the Temple? :roll:

Where is His the Temple today? :roll:

YHVH had it destroyed in 70 AD!

Because there is no Temple standing, sacrifices are not possible. The Scriptures show us that in the Millennium, when the 3rd Temple is built, they will be done again (although not for sins, I believe, but for remembrance).

Your assumption implying that if we do not do sacrifices we are breaking the Torah is just plain wrong and unscriptural.

I'm sorry to tell you that you are wrong my dear friend. :cry:

Why don't you acknowledge it, repent and start worshiping Yahweh in truth and in Spirit? :roll:

Does not He tell us that the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth?

For the Father seeks such to worship Him. YHVH is a spirit, and they who worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth." (John 4:23-24)

Never forget one thing: "You will know the truth and the truth will set you free" (John 8.32)
By deduction, if you do not know the truth (which is clearly your state today, one the Torah issue, please realise it), you are kept in bondage.

By whom? May I ask you?

You've guessed... :twisted:

May Yahweh deliver you :wink:

FX

Donna · by **Donna** on Wed Jul 09, 2008 8:56 am

FX,

Are you telling me that these commandments and statues are not part of the Law?

Jam 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.

I agree with you I am a law breaker but, see no need to keep the law as I can't possibly keep it all. For there is no priesthood in Israel or a temple. But those requirements are as surely a part of the law as the Sabbath is. How do you justify yourself as a law keeper and tell me that there are parts of the law that can't be done?

The Law is one unit. you can't chop it up into the moral law, the ceremonial laws, the sacrifical law, the commandments, and the statues. It doesn't work that way. It is one Law, like we have ONE GOD.

You are obligated to DO THE ENTIRE LAW. It is YOU who has it wrong. You are not doing the entire law, and yet you claim to do just that. It is you who is lying to yourself, not me. It is you who is being deceived, not me. For I aknowledge my inablity to keep the whole LAW. Do you?

Does it matter if I break the Sabbath Law if I am also breaking the sacrifical laws? By breaking the sacrifical laws I am already a law breaker! Will my penalty be anymore sever by breaking the Sabbath, too? If I am not obeying the sacrifical laws my place is already assured in the lake of fire. Will God take me out of the lake of fire to again put me there cause I also broke the Sabbath? Be real here. Be honest.

FX · by FX on Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:04 am

Are you telling me that these commandments and statues are not part of the Law?

Why do you want to make me say things I never did? :roll:

Jam 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.

Yacov (his real name!) is right! :wink:

When you talk about the unity of the Law, I agree with you regarding the 10 commandments. They are one unit. I believe this is clearly what James is referring to here. Notice what he says in verse 2.11. He quotes two commandments out of the 10 (adultery and murder). He is not making reference to the 613 ordinances of the Law!

Therefore if you break one commandment out of the 10, it is as if you broke the 10 of them! Why cannot you understand this, repent and start honouring the 4th commandment, just like your Father in Heaven wants you to? :roll:

“Therefore the sons of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for an everlasting covenant.” (Exodus 31:16)

To be honest with you, that’s beyond my comprehension!

The One you claim to adore tells you “if you love me keep my commandments” and you openly break one of them (which equals breaking the rest of the 9) and yet you still want to argue and try to prove that you are right! :shock:

Don’t you realise that your behaviour is in direct opposition to the Scriptures? :cry:

Are you deaf and blind that you cannot see and hear what Jesus Himself says? I know I’ve quoted this verse many many times, but it looks like you still haven’t taken the time to read it and understand it properly!

“Therefore whoever shall relax one of these commandments, the least, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of Heaven. But whoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of Heaven.” (Matthew 5:19 MKJV)

Donna, please understand that I have nothing to sell to you! Why do you think that I spend my time answering your posts, if not because I love you and I try to show you what Abba wants you to understand. You know what? He loves you so much He does not want you to be least in the Kingdom.

But so far, you are still refusing to open your heart to His very words. Instead of that you are tying to justify yourself using an argumentation that does not pass the test of the Scriptures.

How do you justify yourself as a law keeper and tell me that there are parts of the law that can't be done?

All I’m trying to make you understand, Donna, is that without a Temple, without a Sanhedrin, etc. there are ordinances that just cannot be applied today!

Is it that difficult to grasp? :roll:

The Law is one unit. you can't chop it up into the moral law, the ceremonial laws, the sacrifical law, the commandments, and the statues. It doesn't work that way. It is one Law, like we have ONE GOD. You are obligated to DO THE ENTIRE LAW.

And if you don't, then you are a law breaker, right? Is that what you want us to believe?
:roll:

Donna, if we follow your reasoning, then our King is a law breaker! :cry:

Yeshua did not follow the 613 commandments to the letter. He could not since some did not apply to Him! (In the 613 list, some ordinances are for women, others for married couple, other for the priests etc.).

It is YOU who has it wrong. You are not doing the entire law, and yet you claim to do just that. It is you who is lying to yourself, not me. It is you who is being deceived, not me.

Is our King a law breaker? :shock:

Well, if you tell us He is a sinner, then you and I are in a very bad position! We are believing a lie! :shock:

Now, Donna, tell me? Between you and me, who is wrong and who is right? :wink:

I aknowledge my inablity to keep the whole LAW. Do you?

Sure!

Now at the same time, I acknowledge my ability to keep the 10 commandments, including shabbat!
Just like I acknowledge my ability to keep all the other ordinances of the law that still apply today. Like the food laws, for instance...

Does it matter if I break the Sabbath Law if I am also breaking the sacrifical laws?

According to the Scripture, it sure does!

By breaking the sacrifical laws I am already a law breaker!

No, you are not! Sacrifical laws do not apply anymore. Will that enter in your head? :roll:

Will my penalty be anymore sever by breaking the Sabbath, too? If I am not obeying the sacrifical laws my place is already assured in the lake of fire. Will God take me out of the lake of fire to again put me there cause I also broke the Sabbath?

Your reasoning is faulty, Donna.

Be real here. Be honest.

I’m trying to be my friend...

One thing is certain, all those who refuse to obey Yahweh, will never hear Him say to them: Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful over a few things; I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord (Mat 25.21)

Even worse, some will hear Him say to them: « I never knew you! Depart from Me, those working lawlessness».

LAW LESS NESS

I can bet with you my friend, the ones He will tell this to, are not the ones who did not do the sacrifices while there was no Temple standing. They are the one who turned their hearts away from Him and who refused to obey His voice.

Will you be one of them? :roll:

I pray with all my heart you won’t…

May Yahweh lead you to His light.

FX

Donna · by **Donna** on Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:10 am

FX,

Can you not see that it is you that is wrong?

Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Debtor is a legal term. You are obligated by Law to do the WHOLE LAW.

1) one who owes another, a debtor
a) one held by some obligation, bound by some duty
b) one who has not yet made amends to whom he has injured:
1) one who owes God penalty or whom God can demand punishment as something due, i.e. a sinner

1) all, whole, completely

1) anything established, anything received by usage, a custom, a law, a command
a) of any law whatsoever
1) a law or rule producing a state approved of God
a) by the observance of which is approved of God
2) a precept or injunction
3) the rule of action prescribed by reason
b) of the Mosaic law, and referring, acc. to the context. either to the volume of the law or to its contents
c) the Christian religion: the law demanding faith, the moral instruction given by Christ, esp. the precept concerning love
d) the name of the more important part (the Pentateuch), is put for the entire collection of the sacred books of the OT

You have a debt to do the whole law. For that is how God will judge you. BTW I am not circumcised. Do you do the whole law?

Donna · by **Donna** on Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:14 am

Yacov (his real name!) is right!

When you talk about the unity of the Law, I agree with you regarding the 10 commandments. They are one unit. I believe this is clearly what James is referring to here. Notice what he says in verse 2.11. He quotes two commandments out of the 10 (adultery and murder). He is not making reference to the 613 ordinances of the Law!

There you go chopping it up. Is the 10 Commandments the whole law?

Donna · by **Donna** on Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:15 am

No, you are not! Sacrifical laws do not apply anymore. Will that enter in your head?

Have they passed away? Wait a minute I thought this was to never happen.

Donna · by **Donna** on Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:21 am

FX,

If God wants us to obey the whole law, surely he is big enough to provide a way to do it. If God wants us to celebrate his feasts surely he is big enough so that not one jot or tittle is left undone.

Donna · by **Donna** on Thu Jul 10, 2008 2:31 am

Yeshua did not follow the 613 commandments to the letter. He could not since some did not apply to Him! (In the 613 list, some ordinances are for women, others for married couple, other for the priests etc.).

Jesus never would have done the 6 13 laws anyway. These laws are not biblical law, but Talmudic . Talmudic Law was not exactly Jesus' favorite he condemned it. You are trying to apply Talmudic Law to Jesus, and it will not work, for Jesus will not fulfill the Talmudic Law, but the Law of God through Moses.

FX · by FX on Thu Jul 10, 2008 7:44 am

Donna, Donna :roll:

When are you going to open your heart to the truth? :?:

There you go chopping it up. Is the 10 Commandments the whole law?

Here you go: the 10 commandments sum up the whole Torah.

The first 4 commandments show us how to love YHVH and the following 6 show us how to love our neighbours.

Remember what Yeshua says in Matthew 22.37-40:

-A: the first and foremost commandment is to love Yahweh with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your mind.

Loving Yahweh mean OBEYING Him. Yes, my friend, even Shabbat contrary to what your pastor taught you!

Donna, don’t tell us that you love your pastor more than YHVH!:!: :!:

Why would you rather obey him who tells you to worship “the LORD” on Sun day? :shock:

And openly refuse to obey YHVH who tells you to honour His Shabbat? :shock:

-B: The second commandment which is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

On these two commandments (A + B) hang all the Law and the Prophets.

Torah = WORD OF YHVH = Law + Prophets = the whole Bible = 613 commandments = 10 commandments = 2 commandments (A + B) = TRUTH = YESHUA = LOVE.

LOVE, Donna, L.O.V.E.

Put that in your heart, darling! :wink:

Quote:

No, you are not! Sacrifical laws do not apply anymore. Will that enter in your head?

Have they passed away? Wait a minute I thought this was to never happen.

No, Donna, they haven’t passed away! They will be re-introduced in a short while, when our King comes back…soon!

FX,

If God wants us to obey the whole law, surely he is big enough to provide a way to do it. If God wants us to celebrate his feasts surely he is big enough so that not one jot or tittle is left undone.

Hello Donna, open your eyes! :roll:

Yahweh has provided you with the BIBLE to give you His instructions. Aren’t you big enough to read them, believe them and obey them? :shock:

Jesus never would have done the 6 13 laws anyway. These laws are not biblical law, but Talmudic . Talmudic Law was not exactly Jesus' favorite he condemned it. You are trying to apply Talmudic Law to Jesus, and it will not work, for Jesus will not fulfill the Talmudic Law, but the Law of God through Moses.

You are right, the 613 laws are Talmudic! Rambam codified them. But you are wrong in the sense that all these 613 laws come directly from the Bible. They are all referenced with biblical scriptures (unlike many many other laws of our brothers from the House of Judah (i.e.: the Jews!) follow).

So Yeshua being the Word made flesh, being the actual TORAH, did all of the 613 laws that applied to Him!

So now, Donna, please repeat after Him:

“Therefore whoever shall relax one of these commandments, the least, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of Heaven. But whoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of Heaven.” Mat 5.19

Before denying all you have just read and come back with more objections as you always do, what don't you reply ONCE AND FOR ALL to the following question, which I have asked you time and time again:

In regards to Matthew 5.19, where do you stand, Donna? :roll:

May Yahweh change your heart.

FX

Donna · by **Donna** on Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:05 am

FX,

When are you going to learn to answer my questions.?

When are you going to open your heart to the truth?

Quote:
There you go chopping it up. Is the 10 Commandments the whole law?

Here you go: the 10 commandments sum up the whole Torah.

The first 4 commandments show us how to love YHVH and the following 6 show us how to love our neighbours.

Remember what Yeshua says in Matthew 22.37-40:

Was my question:

A) Are the 10 commandments the whole Law? or

B) Show me how to divide uo the 10 commandments?

Which question did you answer?

Now answer my question and stop with the evasive tactic. Is the 10 commandments the whole law?
*****************************************

-A: the first and foremost commandment is to love Yahweh with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your mind.

Loving Yahweh mean OBEYING Him. Yes, my friend, even Shabbat contrary to what your pastor taught you!

Donna, don’t tell us that you love your pastor more than YHVH!

I do not have a pastor. Sorry, my teacher is the Holy Spirit.
I try my best to listen to the Holy Spirit. It is his voice I listen to, not your voice.

I do obey his voice even down to honoring the Sabbath. Only I do it as outlined in the NT testament, which is the "spirit of the sabbath, not the letter of the Sabbath"

Hbr 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left [us] of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
Hbr 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard [it].
Hbr 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Hbr 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh [day] on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
Hbr 4:5 And in this [place] again, If they shall enter into my rest.
Hbr 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Hbr 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
Hbr 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
Hbr 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Hbr 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God [did] from his.
Hbr 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Are you too busy doing the works of the law that you can't hear what the Spirit is saying?
**************************************************

Quote:
FX,

If God wants us to obey the whole law, surely he is big enough to provide a way to do it. If God wants us to celebrate his feasts surely he is big enough so that not one jot or tittle is left undone.

Hello Donna, open your eyes!
Yahweh has provided you with the BIBLE to give you His instructions. Aren’t you big enough to read them, believe them and obey them?

You are not performing all the laws that are contained in the Bible. For God has taken the ability away to perform some of them. Maybe there is a reason.

Maybe the reason is that Jesus fulfilled them and there is no more reason to do them.

Just maybe you need to stop all your dead works and listen to the spirit?

FX · by FX on Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:58 am

Donna, Donna :roll:

When will you understand? :roll:

Now answer my question and stop with the evasive tactic. Is the 10 commandments the whole law?

I did answer your question already :!:

Torah = WORD OF YHVH = Law + Prophets = the whole Bible = 613 commandments = 10 commandments = 2 commandments (A + B) = TRUTH = YESHUA = LOVE.

Let me be more specific! :wink:

Whole law = Torah = WORD OF YHVH = Law + Prophets = the whole Bible = 613 commandments = 10 commandments = 2 commandments (A + B) = TRUTH = YESHUA = LOVE.

Are you too busy doing the works of the law that you can't hear what the Spirit is saying?

Tell us Donna, would the Spirit of YHVH tell us to do things that are in contradiction to the Torah? :shock:

Just maybe you need to stop all your dead works and listen to the spirit?

Which spirit? :roll:

The same as yours, which tells you that it is OK to break everlasting commandments such as the Shabbat and the Feasts of YHVH, and that celebrating pagan feasts is a coool thing to do? :shock:

Well, non merci my friend! :wink:

The Spirit I am listening to tells me that honouring the Shabbat and not forgetting YHVH's Feasts (amongst others) are not dead works, but everlasting ordinances for the children of Israel.

So which of the spirits you and I are following is the TRUE ONE?

Please let us know, Donna :idea:

And while your are at it, Donna, now your turn to please answer the 10 000$ question:

In regards to Matthew 5.19, where do you stand?

:roll:

Yah bless

FX

Donna · by **Donna** on Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:03 am

FX, FX, FX,

Where have I said to break commandments? I am upholding the "spirit of the law".

joelstrumpet

Mystery of Sanctification

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