joelstrumpet

Norma,

You as usual dodged the answer. ANSWER MY QUESTION.

I did answer your question.

If this can't happen then Paul is obviously a liar and false teacher. If he is so wrong about this, what else did he get wrong?

This is the only question I saw and this is the one I answered. If you don't like my answer there isn't anything I can do about that. But it is the answer.

In Him
Norma

Norma,

The question I wanted I tagged with your name and capitalized it.

So, my question becomes, Norma, HOW CAN JESUS CONSUME WITH THE SPIRIT OF HIS MOUTH, AND DESTROY WITH THE BRIGHTNESS OF HIS COMING, Phannias, the son of Samuel, of the village Aphtha. whom one supposes is already dead.

Norma, besides, if it was the question you claimed, you also failed to answer it as well. But, then I knew you wouldn't answer it.

My answer answers this also. Paul and the Apostles beleived Jesus would return in the lifetime of the early church and that is what they taught according to that belief. That was God;s will for them. This was something kept from Jesus and from the apostles in turn. They would not know when the Lord would return. I don't believe God restricted their knowledge in any other way.

You won't be getting a different answer from me. You have your own opinion. This is my opinion and the scriptures showing they believed and taught that Jesus would return in their time is my witness, and the true order of the Olivet Discourse confirms it. This isn't skirting the question. It is openly answering your questions.

In Him
Norma

Norma,

Did they? I have shown you from the writings of Irenaeus that they believed something quite differently then your claims. Also you still have failed to answer my question.

Forgive my lack of proper punctuation. Here is the question with the proper punctuation.

So, my question becomes, Norma, HOW CAN JESUS CONSUME WITH THE SPIRIT OF HIS MOUTH, AND DESTROY WITH THE BRIGHTNESS OF HIS COMING, Phannias, the son of Samuel, of the village Aphtha? Whom one supposes is already dead.

Please answer the question.

As for what the Apostles taught in regard to the end times?

Here is what the Apostle Peter thought.

2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Yes that is what they taught and also taught that this was to to happen...in their time. Would you like to go over all the text showing what they believed about being in the end times back then, or do you prefer Irenaeus as your souce?

Here is the scripture Paul was applying concerning the man of sin in his time. It is what the Lord will do to all the wicked people of the earth that do not believe in Him as the Son of God.

Isa 11:4 But with righteousness He will judge the poor, And decide with fairness for the afflicted of the earth; And He will strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, And with the breath of His lips He will slay the wicked.

Norma,

Answer the question.

So, my question becomes, Norma, HOW CAN JESUS CONSUME WITH THE SPIRIT OF HIS MOUTH, AND DESTROY WITH THE BRIGHTNESS OF HIS COMING, Phannias, the son of Samuel, of the village Aphtha? Whom one supposes is already dead.

Norma,

How can Paul be trusted with any doctrine if he is wrong about the "man of sin"?

Norma,

Please, answer the question.

Can't you see how your interpretation undermines the very Foundations of the Christian Faith?

How can he not be trusted!!! He did as God willed. He taught that Jesus would return during the lifetime of the early church as Jesus had also taught. No one, not even Jesus knew when He would return.

The answer is the same. Paul taught according to what he was allowed to know, and when the end would come was not one of those things.

Since they believed that the man of sin standing in the Holy Place would be followed by the soon return of the Lord then of course the man of sin would be slain by the breath of the Lord along with all other wicked people of the world. Just as the prophecy of Isaiah declared. Paul was teaching according to what he understood and so were all the other Apostles. This was according to God's purpose.

Believe your own opinion and I will believe mine.

In Him
Norma

It doesn't undermine the true Christian faith, which are those who love the Father with all the heart, mind and soul and through Him the Son also. For He has a firm grip on them and they to Him. Those will eat meat and not milk for growth in their understanding and to build their faith. Taking the scripture word for word and not glossing over those parts they do not understand, but instead make a great effort to understand the harder things. Holding strong in faith.

Norma,

Now you are saying that God was wrong.

Lol! wow. Sorry. I must have talked over your head or you would ask such a silly thing.

Norma,

We are not to know the day or hour, but what about the season? Are you saying that God told them to teach wrong things?

Pitting your interpretation of the scriptures against those of Ireneaus, guess what? Irenaeus does not make God out to be wrong, whereas your interpretation does. Guess which actual interpretation I think is the right one? Let me give you a little hint. The one that Allows God to be teaching the apostles truth, not falsehoods. Guess which interpretation Satan would love to be teaching? That is the interpretation that is from the pits of hell.

Norma,

There ya go with the demeaning attitude again.

I must have talked over your head or you would ask such a silly thing.

Stick with attacking Ideas, Norma, not personal attacks.

Niether do I make God out to be wrong. I am sorry you didn't understand that. Do you claim to know the mind of God now? I don't. This is the reason I should stop talking to you. If you don't understand something you try to turn it into something evil for your own gain rather than understand it.

You mean as in the fig tree putting forth leaves. Different verse.

Not knowing the day or the hour means that no one knows the season of His return either, in the way you are using the word. Jesus may have known that someday he will retun in the fall season. But wouldn't know the year nor the day.

But will we know the season in the sense you are using the word? Yes. We will know what season we are in when we see the birthpangs increasing as the day and hour nears.

Norma,

So, then were the birth pangs in existance at the time of the Apostles?

You have still failed to answer my question, please do so.

I do not know the mind of God, but I do know that he would not want the apostles to be teaching falsehoods. And if they were teaching that Jesus would return in their lifetimes, then clearly they were teaching falsehoods.

I don't know what any surviving Apostel past the year of 70AD may have thought concerning wars and rumors of wars and nations, such as Rome rising up against the Parthian nations. and earthquakes that may have taken place. It would be my opinion that the early church would have continued to believe the Lord would be returning soon. I know John did as we can see by His opening words in the Book of Revelation.

And the next generation believed He would retun in theirs and the next and the next. Just as it should be.

I do not know the mind of God, but I do know that he would not want the apostles to be teaching falsehoods. And if they were teaching that Jesus would return in their lifetimes, then clearly they were teaching falsehoods.

Wow. Strong statement. Since it is known to all the bible scholars that the apostles taught that the Lord would return in the lifetime of the early church. And clear to any that read the few examples that I posted. We really must take the scriptures word for word and not gloss them over for any reason.

Norma,

But, Irenaeus disagreed with all the bible scholars. Again, who was closer to the source then Irenaeus that claims the apostles taught Jesus would return in their lifetimes? Because if they did teach it, didn't this make them false prophets? Saying something would come to pass and it didn't is the mark of a false prophet, is it not?

hmmm...you say Irenaeus believed as John did and yet John was still looking for the Lord's soon return and saying so. So how is it that Irenaese didn't agree with the scholars who say that the early church believed Jesus would return in their lifetime when John was still saying until the ends of his life?

Because if they did teach it, didn't this make them false prophets?

No. And you should try to understand that rather than just keep saying it over and over again.

I believe this is what Donna is wanting to hear from you, Norma:

Will Jesus overthrow the Man of Lawlessness by the breath of His mouth and destroy him by the splendor of His coming?

Yes or no. Simple question with a simple answer, like you've been asking of us regarding the Olivet Discourse and the temple destruction. The text is clear, if we are to believe it.

The question, of course, then leads to this: If the false high priest Phannias (sp?) was the Man of Lawlessness spoken of by Paul, then will he be overthrown and destroyed by Jesus at His coming?

After all...

If the Man of Lawlessness will be overthrown and destroyed by Jesus at His coming;

and

If false high priest Phannias is the Man of Lawlessness;

then

Then the false high priest Phannias will be overthrown and destroyed by Jesus at His coming.

Is this not logically correct?

That is what Donna is trying to get you to clarify.

You wanted a direct answer for your question. Please give a direct answer for this question:

Will Jesus overthrow the Man of Lawlessness by the breath of His mouth and destroy him by the splendor of His coming?

Norma,

But, what you fail to understand is that a day with the Lord is as a thousand years, so what they thought as being soon, could have taken at least 1000 years. Peter understood this and actually says this when he is discussing the return of Christ. So, did they think it would be in their lifetime? Or that it could take as long as a 1000 years. That the Lord would return as a THIEF in the NIGHT!

2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Norma, telling people that Jesus would return in their lifetime was a falsehood. DID HE RETURN IN THEIR LIFETIME?

Rev 1:1 ¶ The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John:

Is it your wish to gloss this one over too??

Norma,

But, again, how long is "shortly"to God? I have shown you from the Apostles own words that to God a day is as a thousand years. If the Apostles understood this, what did it mean to them when they said, "this is the last hour"?

Mishael,

Looks like norma will not answer you...

hmmm....well I am sure the poor and uneducated people of that age understood that John didn't really mean "these things which must shortly come to pass"

Hind sight is in our favor not theirs.


Well, since you also gloss these words over then there is nothing more to talk about.

In Him
Norma

Norma,

Your at it again. Please answer the question Mishael asked, if you will not answer my question.

Norma, Is hind sight in our Favor or God's?