joelstrumpet

Genesis 15:16 by Jewish tradition was fulfilled in the exodus from Egypt but for me it was fulfilled in 1948 CE.

Did God undertake to bring the descendants back in the fourth "generation" or was God just an observer of this event.

Earlier in Genesis 15 God did undertake to be actively involved in the return of the descendants to the "Promised Land" but in this verse he did not indicate that he would participate at all.

Also is the second part of this verse now being fulfilled today and if so who are the Amorite people today?

Who else has any views on this matter. I would be interested to hear your comments

I go with the Jewish tradition. The Israelite were held in captivity for 400 years by Pharaoh. You would be stretching the meaning of four generations out a very long time if you interpret that scripture any other way.

Genesis 15:16 (New International Version)
16 In the fourth generation your descendants will come back here, for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure."

What do you think the primary meaning is of four generations?

In answering your question we need to consider the second part of verse 16 first.

What is the iniquity of the Amorite people?

Their iniquity is the denial that Jehovah is the one true God, that God promised to give the Israelite Nation a Land filled with milk and honey i.e The Promised Land, and that Israel is a people that is special to God and Loved by Him.

That certainly did not happen when God brought Israel up out of Egypt.

16b is only being fulfilled today, it was not at the forefront of events back when the Israelites entered the Promised land. Listen to the rhetoric of the Amorites today, those that worshipped the moon god then have as yet to be dealt with for their iniquity towards God, particularly in light of the event of today.

The meaning of this verse (Gen 15:16) has been hidden for nearly 3,500 years because someone somewhere wrote that this prophecy was fulfilled approximately 3,500 years ago. Jeremiah warns us not to build on other people words but to seek out the truth for ourselves. We today have the advantage to look back over an additional 3,500 years. In writing historical commentary, we are advised to be careful if we try and write the story from our perspective, particularly if we are part of the historical story. That is what the Jewish tradition did. We have an advantage in that we can review all of the evidence and draw the right conclusion.

The misinterpretation of the Hebrew word translated as “generation” in Gen 15:16 has hidden other truths in the bible. The correct understanding is “age” so that passages like Isa 61:4 become “the desolation of two ages” instead of “the desolation of many generations”. Here Isaiah was clearly stating that there would be two ages between Jesus’ first and second coming. That is certainly true as a little over 2,000 years will transpire between the first and second coming of Jesus.

By accepting one verse’s previous translation and understanding as being correct, it hides so much more from us until we realise our mistakes. Then it is from hindsight and in our case hindsight will be to late.

Regards

Jay

Jay,

I see you arbitrarily interpret an "age" to be 1000 years.

How did you come up with that notion?

Also, why do you say that the Amorites had to be guilty of worshiping the "moon god"? I think you are reaching past what the Bible says on that one also.

God gave the Israelites a promise based on a condition. He said that all would be well in the Promised Land if the Israelites obeyed His commands. Well, they didn't and we see the results today!!!

Judges 2:1-3
1 The angel of the LORD went up from Gilgal to Bokim and said, "I brought you up out of Egypt and led you into the land that I swore to give to your forefathers. I said, 'I will never break my covenant with you, 2 and you shall not make a covenant with the people of this land, but you shall break down their altars.' Yet you have disobeyed me. Why have you done this? 3 Now therefore I tell you that I will not drive them out before you; they will be thorns in your sides and their gods will be a snare to you."

Yes I did but that is tradition, we have assummed that an age in God's timetable is a 1,000 years but even that is wrong from my study of scripture. Revelations even tells us that an age is slightly longer than 1,000 years but we ignore the clues.

I have just brought Joel Richardson's book titled "Anitchrist: Islam's awaited Messiah" and I looked for a proof text from the Bible and I did not really see one even though there are clues in the Bile to justify his thesis.

Could Genesis 15:16 be one of the proof texts from the Bible that he could have use to justify his arguement. Does Revelations give us any clues that Islam awaited messiah is the antichrist or that Islam has any part to play in God's unfolding plans for mankind's salvation.

Regards

Jay

Jay,

FYI, the name of the book is "Revelation", not "Revelations". It is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants what must soon take place.

And, by the way, can you point me in the direction of another religion on earth that wants a one world government (Rev. 13:1-10) and a one world religion (Rev. 13:11-18 ) and is in the practice of beheading people (Rev. 6:9-11 and Rev. 20:4) besides Islam?

Revelation does, in fact, give us several clues... Those are only a taste of what Revelation has to offer.

Please prayerfully study the scriptures...

My apologies for spelling errors and grammar but I am only a simple person who has to be able to get his laughing matter around things before he can understand them. I work on the basis that errors and ommissions are accepted because I also make errors and ommissions. I never could spell, not even to save my own life as I had an impairment when I was youg that stopped me from hearing the sounds of words. Some people even now find me difficult to understand when I speak. But enough about me.

Yes we should go to the Bible as you suggest and study it prayerfully which is what I have been doing for the past eight years. I have found that the scriptures have been badly mis-understood particularly by "learned" people and I have had to relearn what is being said in scripture.

I have learnt that one word wrongly understood can impact my whole understanding of the Bible and Genesis 15:16 is but one verse where the Hebrew word translated as "generation" is wrongly understood, In Renn's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words it is suggestted that OT1755 is better translated as "age" in certain cases and Genesis 15:16 is one such case where this is true.

God said in this verse that "Abraham's descendants would return to the land of Canaan in the fourth age of his descendants" which is certainly true. That this return would come about without God's help which is not the case in Genesis 15:12-14 or other places in Genesis, where God indicates that he will have a hand in their return in that "first age of Israel".

If we look for the Amorite people today they are part of the Muslim people who live to the south-east of Israel. It has been suggested by someone of learning that the God of the Amorite people back around 1500 BCE was "Allah", the moon god. I have for the moment accepted that that is true. If you have evidence to suggest otherwise, then I would be most happy to consider that evidence and reconsider what it is that I know and understand.

Yes I agree that The Book of Revelation does give a number of clues and some of the prophecies concerning the Muslim people have been fulfilled within my own lifetime. But then I have read the writing of "learned people/scholars that debunk that particular understanding as they hold onto their traditional concepts. (Sadly, I also can be guilty of that sin.)

The understanding of Scripture is hidden from us because of the "bad translations and meanings" given to certain Hebrew and Greek words that twist and distorts our understand of God and the Later Days. If I hold onto my "traditional understanding" then I will not come to understand what it is that God is doing during our present "age".

Shalom

Jay

jay,

Where does Revelation say that an age is 1000 years?

Perdonada

It does not specifically say that an age is 1,000 years but our traditional understanding of the seventh age or the millennium age is that it will last for 1,000 years.

But to the 1,000 years we must add the short time before it is over. So in Chapter 20 is there two ages or just one age indicated? If there are two ages then the "ages" are possible of different lengths. If there is only one age referred to then the age must be longer than 1,000 years.

The dilemma I am working through at the moment is just how long is an age, is the traditional understanding that 1,000 years is an age in God's timeframe for mankind right?

My view is that we cannot fit the traditional 1,000 years into the Biblical record and make it mesh appropriately without distortion of the storyline presented.

What is your understanding of the length of an age?

Shalom

Jay

jay,

I've got some good information for you that I ran across when reading my Bible this week. I'll post when I get a chance.

Jay,

You said:

What is the iniquity of the Amorite people?

Their iniquity is the denial that Jehovah is the one true God, that God promised to give the Israelite Nation a Land filled with milk and honey i.e The Promised Land, and that Israel is a people that is special to God and Loved by Him.

That certainly did not happen when God brought Israel up out of Egypt.

16b is only being fulfilled today, it was not at the forefront of events back when the Israelites entered the Promised land. Listen to the rhetoric of the Amorites today, those that worshipped the moon god then have as yet to be dealt with for their iniquity towards God, particularly in light of the event of today.

The meaning of this verse (Gen 15:16) has been hidden for nearly 3,500 years because someone somewhere wrote that this prophecy was fulfilled approximately 3,500 years ago.

I have to tell you that the Bible states in 1 Kings 21:26 that the Amorites were, in fact, driven out of the land by God!

1 Kings 21:25-26
25 (There was never a man like Ahab, who sold himself to do evil in the eyes of the LORD, urged on by Jezebel his wife. 26 He behaved in the vilest manner by going after idols, like the Amorites the LORD drove out before Israel.)

God had a hand in this "driving out" of the Amorites.

You make a very interesting point with the verse that you have used to justify your argument that the Lord dealt with the iniquity of the Amorites when he “drove them out of the Promised Land” when the Israelite nation took possession of the land but there are also verses that state that he left the Amorite in the land and that the Israelites “dwelt among the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, the Per'izzites, the Hivites, and the Jeb'usites; and they took their daughters to themselves for wives, and their own daughters they gave to their sons; and they served their gods”{Judges 3:4-6} to test the Israelite people and to teach them about war.

The context of 1 Kings 21:25-26 does no explicitly indicate that the Lord has already dealt with the iniquity of the Amorite people. The reference here to the Amorites is to unambiguously identify them and does not imply anything else.

I wish that it had for you sake but it does not disprove the point I had previously made about the iniquity of the Amorite people in the context of the event of today and the forthcoming action of the Lord against them.

Perhaps you may wish to provide another reference from the Bible to help me understand why I might be wrong.

Shalom

Jay