joelstrumpet

I tried this once before but sort of lost track of my thoughts. So let me throw this out again and see what ya'all think

Remember the seven kings in Revelation? Five have fallen etc, etc.

Turn back to Chapter 11 in Daniel we find there will be four more kings that rise up in Persia AFTER Darius. So counting from Nebuchad-nezzer whom we are told in chapter 2 is the first, Belshazzar would then seem to be the 2nd, and Darius 3rd. Considering that it seems there are to be, after Darius, four more kings to rise up in Persia (total 7). And it is this seventh king which stirs up all against realm of Javan. After the 'big stir' a little horn (eighth) rises up.

This little horn is commonly thought to rise up from Alexanders Greek Empire. However my question now is wasn't it Darius which Alexander came against and defeated? It seems to me Darius was the third king spoken of in this line not the seventh. Yet it is the seventh king who stirs up all against the realm of Javan in the time of the end.

I also am reminded the He Goat and the Ram are spoken of in another chapter in Daniel no names of any kings are given it is only said they represent the kings of Javan, Madi and Persia and that the clash is at or near the the time of the end.

Oh ya, one more thing the only reference I can find to eight named kings in the entire Bible is in the book of Esther and they all are Persian too, just an FYI. I wonder if it may give us a clue as to or where they come from.

In otherwords the clash between the ram & goat most likley hasn't happened yet. No wonder Iran seems so eager to pick a fight with someone. And the 7 kings in Revelation are the same 7 in Daniel 11 afterwhich comes the little horn. All Persian

I am texting all this on a cell in Winter Haven, ME. Sorry. I add now too I nolonger believe, Alexander's Greek Empire or Rome has anything to do with the prophecy in Daniel

David

Daniel 8 talks about the trampling of the Gentiles for 2,300 years and this is associated with the Greek Empire and the Roman Empire which cam out of the Greek Empire. Now one of the Beasts in Daniel 7 is associated with the Greek influence that has flowed over the last 2,2?? years and it will come to an end at the time of the Second Advent when all the Beasts are dealt with.

Now the segments of the statue in Daniel 2 does not include the Roman Empire. My view is that the fourth segment is Iraq with the fifth segment being the Coalition of the Willing which attacked Iraq because of the oil within its borders. Isaiah 13:20 and Jeremiah 50:39 also tells us that Babylon would be desolated and devastated for approximately 2,000 years. Also the last two segments of the statue are to be still in place and existing when the Rock comes down out of heaven and crushes them both as well as other kingdoms and empires.

Now I am coming closer to the view that Daniel 11 is associated with the 23 year or so period that Satan rushes around after he is released from his 1,000 imprisonment to once more try to upstage God before he is finally dealt with forver.

Shalom

Tom

Quick reply here:

Is Daniel referring to Darius III who Alex defeated? Daniel lived during Cyrus reign who many believe is Darius the Mede, but if Daniel is really referring to Darius III (lived after Daniel), then perhaps these "kings" are not men but dynasties?

Darius III was the last Shah of the Achaemenid empire. So if he's numer 3 then the Median empire (which Neb conquered) is number 1 & Neb's empire is number 2. Who came next?

4. Alex
5. Selecius (5 have fallen)
6. Parthia (1 is)
7. Sassanids (the other has not yet come)

Note the Sassanid empire was the last real Persian empire, then Persia fell to Islam. And the Sassinids did indeed "stir up the kings of the Greeks" (Byzantines). So it's impossible for the "little horn" to be Antiochus. The little horn is still to arise from the region of the Byzantine empire.

A sumary of Persian imperial history: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_empire

I think too Darius and Cyrus are one and the same. Ever read The history and destruction of Bel and the Dragon? It offers an account of WHY Daniel was cast into the lions den and by whom. It was Cyrus. It is thougt too that in Daniel 6:28 "and in the reigne of Cyrus the Persian...". Can also be translated "that is to say in the reigne of Cyrus the Persian"

In Daniel it says the 7th king spoken of in that book stirs up all against the realm of Javan (see Gen 10:4-5). THEN comes a little horn. So even if one thought Darius a.k.a. Cyrus or even Darius III were the ones that stirred up all. It would seem to be in direct conflict with the Revelation given to Yahuchanan who was told the seventh king had not come yet. I hope that made sense. may our teacher Yahushua bless us with understanding.

Hey, first time I been at a computer in months,

I want to say that even though in our Bibles the word Greek is used in Daniel to describe the 3rd kingdom. I content that word was used by the translators of the Bible because of the story we all know of told by Flavius Josephus. When it was said by the Jews of that day that it was Alexander the Great who was prophecied to come. However the original word is the Hebrew word for JAVAN. If we leave it alone and not allow ourselves to narrow our search to small contry named Greece and Cyprs or by stories from Josephus. We can deduce by searching elsewhere in the Bible the general location where the families of Javan inhabit which is found in Genesis 10. The realm of Javan includes that of Javan, Kittim and Dodan these are families not bordered nations though we do currently live within them.

With that and some other stuff I been thinking of the battle between the Ram and the Goat may not have happened yet. But I think it is safe to say the kings of media and persia do seem to be stirring up all against the realm of Javan these days. Provided of course if you believe the Table of Nations holds any water.

It may be there is NO gap between the 3rd and 4th kingdom then. Daniel chapter eight tells us the 'big picture', Chapter 11 mentions the same battle then the details of the time of the transgressors until the vile king.

ok ok ok let me sumarize

And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

Revelation 17:10-11


I'm thinking that in Daniel we are told Nebuchad-nezzar is the first but who are the other 7? Read on in Daniel, Belshazzar is the second king spoken of then Darius. Now Darius can be a touchy subject as he is to many historians a huge unknown, why he is mentioned here when it was Cyrus who regiened is at the moment beyond me. But when I read the ENTIRE book of Daniel namely the Destruction of Bel and the Dragon it, for me atleast, re-enforces the idea that Darius and Cyrus are one and the same. For in that story it seems king Cyrus was the one who cast Daniel into the lions den.

Looking at Chapter 11 if I read it right there to be four more that rise up in Persia after 'Darius' (whom I believe to be Cyrus) which will come to the grand total of seven kings spoken of in Daniel. It is this seventh king which stirs up all against the Realm of Javan which I suspect includes Elisha, Dodanim, Kittim and Tarshish (Genisis 10 ). In chapter 8 we read this battle happens at the time of the end when the seventh Persian king causes Javan (the goat in chapter 8 ) to move against the kings of Media and Persia (the ram chapter 8 ) and beat them down like a rag doll.

From this battle according to chapter 8 a little horn rises up in it's aftermath. In Chapter 11 we see the same battle spoken of but in greater detail. As not only does it tell you it is the seventh king that stirs up all against the Realm of Javan. It goes into some detail of the aftermath all the way up to the vile king, whom I believe we would agree as to being the little horn. From what I gathered I think the time between the seventh king and the vile king in Chapter 12 is what is described in chapter 8 as the time of the transgressors.

Again I don't think there is gap between the 3rd and fourth kingdoms. Mainly due to my thought there will not be a thrird temple built by Jew or Gentile. As the only reference I find to another temple being constructed is one built by our King.

Anyways what it boils down to for me is Alexanders Empire has nothing to do with Daniels prophecy. Has the Realm of Javan been stirred yet? I don't know. If it hasn't yet maybe when Javan comes against Perisa the aftermath a.k.a. the time of the transgressors speaks of a time when there will be a united Islamic Union with a line of Caliphs.


P.S. To some here, because Bel and the Dragon is in the Apocrphya some may think me the boogie man. But the translators of the 1611 edition thought it important enough to include in the Bible because of it's historical significance. Which why I read it to further my understanding.

Also these kings and nations spoken of in the Bible are really more families than bordered nations. My thought is the entire Bible is a family affair, and we all know how family relations can be sometimes. But the problems between Israel and Ishmael is on a much grander scale.

One must remember we are all decendents of the sons of Noah. To help understand where these (our) families migrated to there is a source I like to refer too sometimes http://www.soundchristian.com/man/ Take it for what it's worth.

Ok Im done with this

One more thing, just occured to me right after I logged off. Maybe the seventy week period spoken of in Daniel refers to the time of the transgressors after the battle between the Ram and the Goat. Just a thought...

king #1 Nebuchad-nezzar,

king #2 Beltshazzar

king #3 Cyrus (it is written in Daniel 6:28, Darius and Cyrus reigned but it written elsewhere in the Bible (2 Chron.; Ezra) that it was Cyrus who ruled over all the kingdoms of the earth. Darius is a big historical unknown. Cyrus on the other hand is not and as I said I tend to think they are one and the same based upon what I read in Daniel Chapter 13 a.k.a. The History and Destruction of Bel and the Dragon (Apocrypha)

king #4 unnamed

king #5 unnamed

king #6 unnamed; I think this is the one which ruled during the revelation to John "one is". Which would therefore rule out Alexander as the king of Javan.

king #7 unnamed; Has this one risen yet? I don't know for certain. But we are told he is the one who will stir up all against the realm of Javan. Which is described in Chapter 8 also.

After the battle I tend to think the aftermath is described in detail in chapter 11 several kings rise up in the fourth kingdom culminating in the vile king described in Daniel 11: 21 and on. I also think the time between the battle between the king of Javan and the Mede and Persian kings and the vile king (a.k.a. little horn) might be known as the time of the transgressors.

But where to put the 70 weeks period? Ask yourself what was Daniel reading when the angel told him of the 70 weeks? He was reading the book of Jeremiah and it seems the theme of Jeremiah might be during the time of the transgressors. Could 70 weeks refers to Feast of Weeks which would then be 70 years rather than 490. Am I reaching to far with this.

Like everthing else said at Joels it points to the middle east and not Rome nor Alexanders Greek Empire for that matter. The eighth is of the seven PERSIAN. Actually two Chaldean and four Persian kings.



Anyone? Bueller anyone?