joelstrumpet

We know that the great tribulation will be the last half of Daniel's 70th week, or 1260 days. But what does the 1290 and 1335 days mean?

I've heard one explanation that says that the antichrist will rule over Jerusalem for 1260 days, coinciding with the two witnesses ministry of 1260 days, and the woman Israel fleeing to Bozrah for time, times and half a time. Jesus returns and leads the remnant of Israel to Jerusalem, followed by the battle of Armageddon during the 30 days in which antichrist is defeated. The 45 days involves the restoration of Mount Zion, of Israel, and the restoration of the temple. After the 45 days, or 1335 days from the time the abomination of desolation is set up in the temple, Jesus begins His millennial rule.

Does this sound plausible?

Hi Socks

What if people are putting times together that don't go together?

What if the Hebrew word YOM in these verses in Daniel 12 doesn't mean days, but instead is speaking of years.

If we were reading this is the origianl Hebrew and we saw the word YOM and saw that it was being used in a prophecy then we wouldn't know if God was intending the word to mean days, or to mean years. The English translators had to make a decision and they chose "days" for us but they could have chosen "years".

But what if God intended it to mean years? What then?

1290 years and 1335 years?


If it is only a year then why not just say 3 1/2 years in all these verses?

What about 42 months (moons)? That is what it says in Revelations. Not months, but from moon to moon the way the Hebrew calendar is still today. What is that..like 1239 days in 42 moons?

so we have all these times.

A time, times, and a half time
1290 YOM
1335 YOM

1260 days
A time, times, and a half time
and 42 moons (1239 days)

Was God just lookin to see how many different ways He could say 3 1/2 years? Without ever actually saying 3 1/2 years. I don't think so. I think a lot can be learned from these different tmes the Lord has set..and it won't be learned by just clumping them all together into one time peroid under a prophetic time of "360 days per year". Who thought that one up?

So why can't a "time" be year of years.

I think there are two places where 1260 days simply mean 1260 days. That is the 1260 days in Rev 12, which is the 1260 days Jesus taught Israel outside the cities, which was called the wilderness. And the 1260 days that the two witnesses will prophecy in Jerusalem in the last days.

Of those 1260 days that the two witnesses are prophesying the beast will be in control of Jerusalem for 1239 days of those 1260.


I think the 1290 YOM is years and not days. and the 45 more years until the 1335th day is how long it took the Jews, once they had been returned to the land, until they actually took back Jerusalem. From 1922 until 1967.

I don't think God was repeating the same 3 1/2 years just to make it more interesting. I think He was being very specific and telling us all sorts of things about Israel and about the beast over a long period of time.

Besides, 1290 plus 45 doesn't equal 3 1/2 years.

God Bless
In Him
Norma

Norma haven't we already been over this and still disagree?

What if God did intend for YOM to mean days like it does mean?

Why would Daniel use time, times and half a time, and John use the same words, and they both mean entirely different things?

Where does it say that Jesus teaches for 1260 days in the end times?

So why can't a "time" be year of years.

Why would it? And if it is, then the woman will be taken into the wilderness for 1260 years not days, the two witnesses would prophecy for 1260 years as well, we've got to be consistent!

If I understand you correctly, you've got the great tribulation as starting from the Muslims building the dome of the rock until the Jews took control of Jerusalem. While the dome of the rock is still there, does this mean that "for the sake of the elect" is in this case referring to the Jews as the elect? The ones who denied that Jesus Christ is God?

I meant this post for discussion for those of us who still have to go through the great tribulation Norma. For those of you who have, Cheers! Maybe you can find the time to pray for those of us who still have to go through it.

I think your theories are interesting Norma, but can not agree. For one thing, the Jewish years were 360 days under their lunar calendar. I am always leery of too clever of manipulation of numbers. Time will tell.

Socks, I think the different numbers are nonetheless an enduring mystery. The best go at it I have seen is that the 1335 references the period beyond 1260 that Jesus is winnowing the wheat from the chaff world wide. If Islam is the beast empire, and millions survive the great battle b/c, they are not there, still Jesus will have to deal with the tares who took the mark b/f the Millenium gets under way. Anyway, as I have said elsewhere, the post- Armageddon period is very confusing, and just read that period as described by Ezekiel to get my meaning.

>>>>Norma haven't we already been over this and still disagree?

***Yes..but is that a reason not to talk more about it.


>>>Why would Daniel use time, times and half a time, and John use the same words, and they both mean entirely different things?

****They don't mean entirely diffferent times. They are the same time.

>>>Where does it say that Jesus teaches for 1260 days in the end times?

It is assumed from the text of his life. Baptized during the Fall feasts taught for almost 3 1/2 years until to Passover. By the Jewish calendar that would in some years be 1260 days.


Quote:
So why can't a "time" be year of years.
Why would it? <<<


**Because it makes sense now that we know who the beast is.

>>>And if it is, then the woman will be taken into the wilderness for 1260 years not days,


****She was taken into the wilderness for a time, times and a half time the second time. This would be the years years. Like weeks of weeks.

>>>the two witnesses would prophecy for 1260 years as well, we've got to be consistent!

***It is consistant. 1260 days means days. Those are in Rev. Daniel doesn't speak of 1260 days at all. In Daniel it is a time, times and half time, 1290 and 1335.

>>If I understand you correctly, you've got the great tribulation as starting from the Muslims building the dome of the rock until the Jews took control of Jerusalem. While the dome of the rock is still there, does this mean that "for the sake of the elect" is in this case referring to the Jews as the elect? The ones who denied that Jesus Christ is God?

***I gave one amount of time a "time" could mean. It could also be 542 years as a cycle. and go from 70 AD until 1967. This would be the time of the Jews in the nations. OR "outside Jerusalem" According to Luke's account this time would last until the "Time of the gentiles is complete" So It wouldn't mater if the Dome is still there. It only would mark the time the woman Israel was not in Jerusalem.

I am saying we have to keep our minds open to everything. And of course look at history and see what might fit the scriptures.



>>>I meant this post for discussion for those of us who still have to go through the great tribulation Norma. For those of you who have, Cheers! Maybe you can find the time to pray for those of us who still have to go through it.


***Not nice, Socks. You have prejudged me. Not that I am offended.
I have never said we won't go through tribulation. I just don't apply the same scripture to it as you do to it. I believe that the "Birthpangs" are the tribulation that Jesus was telling about would take place before His return in the Olivet Discourse. Also the events of the image of the first beast and seals are great tribulation for us. Because I don't see this the way you do would you rather I delete my post? I can if you want. But I think that all things should be explored because afterall we are the ones that will be going through the tribulation. I already know I will be going through it.


In Him
Norma

Hi El Gallo

The Jews only have one way of counting the years as directed to them by God. They count by the New moons. Which are not every 30 days.

Their years are 353, 354, 355 days per year with a leap month added every 3 years at 384, 385 days per year. In a 19 year cycle it will match up exactly with our calendar.

So you can count long peroids of time by our calendar or theirs and will arrive at the same date if it were to end at the end of a 19 year cycle.

The Jews, including Jesus, went by the Jewish calendar so I wouldn't write it off so fast.

In Him
Norma

Norma, didn't mean to be 'not nice' I'm just frustrated from having to deal with these same old arguments, that I feel I've already dealt with.

Hmm......trying to wrap my head around what you're saying here. The woman being taken into the desert for time, etc. has already happened? If Revelation up to chapter 12 has already been fulfilled, how much more do you consider has already been fulfilled?



Where does it say that Jesus teaches for 1260 days in the end times? By this I mean what verses are you assuming that he will be teaching in the desert from?

So why can't a "time" be year of years.
Why would it? <<<


**Because it makes sense now that we know who the beast is.

That's something you've added to the bible and it doesn't make sense to me.

***I gave one amount of time a "time" could mean. It could also be 542 years as a cycle. and go from 70 AD until 1967.

542 is a new number, where do you get that one from?

Aww, Socks, just because we've discussed it shouldn't mean you are done with it. Where is the room for understanding things in a new light? How many times do you think we will re-discuss these very things in the next 5 years. lol! And who is the next guy or gal to post something that will make us both rethink things once again. New things are brought into our understanding all the time and we change and grow in our understanding, I know I do. I have to readjust my thinking all the time.

Quote:
So why can't a "time" be year of years.
Why would it? <<<

**Because it makes sense now that we know who the beast is.

That's something you've added to the bible and it doesn't make sense to me. <<<

Hmmm...when did you learn that 70 weeks was really 490 years, in other words weeks of weeks? From the get-go so you never questioned it right? Who is to say a "Time" isn't "Years of Years" to God?

Quote:
***I gave one amount of time a "time" could mean. It could also be 542 years as a cycle. and go from 70 AD until 1967.

542 is a new number, where do you get that one from?

That was my way of saying we don't know for sure what amount of time is involved. We all know that there is no way to know what all this symbolism and numbers in the prophecy means when looking forward into the future. But if it is the past. Then we can look back and maybe get the answer to what God intended when He said it.

Rev chapter 12 is a time line going from the birth of Jesus up to the end days.

first Jesus birth

then Jesus 1260 days of ministry teaching His people in His new covenant in the wildreness (which meant any place outside the cities) i.e the 5000.


Next comes salvation into the world. This of course is Jesus' sacrifice.
Jesus then takes His place in heaven as our mediator. Satan can no longer accuse before the throne because Jesus covers our sins.
Satan is throne out of heaven down to earth.

The woman Israel is taken into the wilderness but she is given wings which indicates distance. This is when Israel is taken into the nations. God nurishes her (meaning she keeps the law and remains a nation within the nations). Satan pursues the woman Israel with a flood (of peoples and nations and tongues) as we see in Chap 17).

The land swallows the water. Which I think means it is when the Jews are saved by her being brought back out of the nations and placed back in the land (earth) of Israel.


Does that explain how the "times, time and half time" can be the same as spoken of in Daniel?

Who is in the land of Israel while she is in the nations? The beast. so this time can be used as a time for both the woman and the beast.

In Him
Norma

Well, instead of getting all heated up again......

Does anyone else who doesn't hold Norma's view have some insights? lol

Okay, I don't see anyone jumping in here so let's look at the day the Lord returns and what happens afterwards to see if an extra 30 days can be fit in there and then an extra 45 days. Hows that?


So the Gog war is going full force and then comes the day of the Lord.

Eze 39:4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that [is] with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and [to] the beasts of the field to be devoured. 5) Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken [it], saith the Lord GOD. 6) And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I [am] the LORD.

Eze 39:8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this [is] the day whereof I have spoken. :9 ¶ And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:

Eze 39:11 ¶ And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the [noses] of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call [it] The valley of Hamongog. 12) And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.


Eze 39:14 And they shall sever out men of continual employment, passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth, to cleanse it: after the end of seven months shall they search. :15) And the passengers [that] pass through the land, when [any] seeth a man's bone, then shall he set up a sign by it, till the buriers have buried it in the valley of Hamongog.

So far the Day of the Lord, which is called armageddon, seems to be one day.

For 7 months the dead will be buried out of the next 7 years following the day of the Armageddon.

I think if there was an extra 30+45=75 days or 2 1/2 months I think it would be recorded in this text.


But that is just my opinion. Whats your in light of this text?

In Him
Norma

Socks,

I have quoted the places that speaks of the daily sacrifices and the AOD. From Matthew we know that the AOD starts a time of trouble that will never be equaled again. In Daniel 9 we are told in the middle of the week sacrifices will be stopped. It seems to me that here is the time line that Daniel talks about.

70th week starts
Middle of the week-Daily Sacrifies are stopped
1290 days later the AOD is set in place-which starts the time of trouble.
1335 days after the Daily is taken away? things settle down somewhat
2300 days the sanctuary is be cleansed.

Dan 8:11 Yea, he magnified [himself] even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily [sacrifice] was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
Dan 8:12 And an host was given [him] against the daily [sacrifice] by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
Dan 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain [saint] which spake, How long [shall be] the vision [concerning] the daily [sacrifice], and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
Dan 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Dan 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily [sacrifice], and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Dan 12:11 And from the time [that] the daily [sacrifice] shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, [there shall be] a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Dan 12:12 Blessed [is] he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Hi Donna,

You bring up the 2,300 days.

Daniel 8

9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.
12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
15 And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.
16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.
17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

I wanted to post the scripture in context to show the connection of the 2,300 days and the time the little horn is in power. The little horn takes away the daily sacrifice and the place of the sanctuary is cast down. The 2,300 days is the answer to a question posed. One saint asks another "how long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice...." So the vision in Daniel 8 concerns the time that the AC takes away the daily sacrifice and places the AOD. This is important to take note of.

These 2,300 days must somehow fit into the timeframe the AC is in power. We know from other parts of Daniel that the AC places the AOD at the midpoint of the last 7 years (Dan 9:27). This 2,300 days in Dan 8 seems to contradict other scripture which indicates 1260 days. If we study this chapter using Strong's concordance we can reconcile the 2,300 days, sort of...lol.

Dan 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
Dan 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

The word for days in Dan 8:14 means this.

Dan 8:14 And he said559 unto413 me, Unto5704 two thousand505 and three7969 hundred3967 days;6153, 1242 then shall the sanctuary6944 be cleansed.6663

H6153
‛ereb
eh'-reb
From H6150; dusk: - + day, even (-ing, tide), night.

H1242
bôqer
bo'-ker
From H1239; properly dawn (as the break of day); generally morning: - (+) day, early, morning, morrow.

There are two Strong’s numbers for the word days here. They appear to be opposite in meaning. Had me scratching my head the first time I noticed it.

H3117
yôm
yome
From an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literally (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term), (often used adverbially): - age, + always, + chronicles, continually (-ance), daily, ([birth-], each, to) day, (now a, two) days (agone), + elder, X end, + evening, + (for) ever (-lasting, -more), X full, life, as (so) long as (. . . live), (even) now, + old, + outlived, + perpetually, presently, + remaineth, X required, season, X since, space, then, (process of) time, + as at other times, + in trouble, weather, (as) when, (a, the, within a) while (that), X whole (+ age), (full) year (-ly), + younger.

Now every other time the word days is used in this chapter it gives this meaning above. Wow three different definitions for one word in one chapter. It only begins to make sense when we read this verse.

Dan 8:26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.

It is a vision of both the evening and the morning hence the dual meaning in Dan 8:14. The 2,300 is 2,300 evenings and mornings. Divide 2,300 by 2 and that will give you the amount of full days- 1150. 3 ½ years is 1260 days leaving a difference of 110 days or around 3 months. Now we can verify this time frame with other scripture. The AC causes the daily sacrifice to cease.

Dan 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Dan 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Daniel 12 tells us that from the time the daily sacrifice is taken away we have ~3 ½ years, The daily sacrifice is taken away in Dan 8 by the AC also. The evening/morning interpretation is the best explanation I have seen to date comparing with other scripture. It at least fits within the 3 1/2 year frame other scripture indicates. The 1290 and 1335 days are still a mystery but I am sure they fit precisely somehow...

Peace,
Seeker

The vision of the little horn on the goat belongs to the Grecian empire and the king of the North called Antiochus IV.

The 1150 morning and 1150 evening sacrifice being abolished was what took place when Antiochus IV replaced the High priest with a false high priest of the name of Jason and turned the Temple compound into a gymnasium.

He then went to Egypt to battle with Ptolemy for two months and the Jews heard he died and had a great celebration. Antiochus had not died and when he heard of this he returned and ransaced Jerusalem and caused pigs to be sacrificed on the altar and the Jews were forced to either eat it or be tortured to death. Many chose death. This sacrificing of pig on the altar caused a rebellion among the Jews and it took 3 years for them to defeat Antiochus IV and restore the Temple. The dedication of the Temple became know as Hanukkah. The miracle of the oil.

These very same things are listed in the vision of the Kings of the North in Dan 11:21-28 about Antiochus IV.

The vision of the 2300 morning and evening sacrifice was fulfilled at that time and the time should not be applied to the end days. It just muddies up the water even more.

In Him
Norma

A question for Norma about the time, times and half a time:

Daniel wrote:Then I, Daniel, looked, and there before me stood two others, one on this bank of the river and one on the opposite bank. One of them said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long will it be before these astonishing things are fulfilled?”

The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed” (emphasis added).
Daniel 12:5-7

It appears that according to these verses, the power of the holy people will be broken by the end of the time, times and half a time. If this time period has already occurred for Israel, how has their power been broken by the end of it? And how have all these things been completed? Taken in context, that would include the Resurrection as described at the beginning of chapter 12.

Seeker,

So, you are saying that the 2300 morning and evening sacrifices delineate the time between the sacrifices are ending and the setting up of the AOD?

Hi Mishael

Dan 12:6 And [one] said to the man clothed in linen, which [was] upon the waters of the river, How long [shall it be to] the end of these wonders?
Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which [was] upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that [it shall be] for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these [things] shall be finished. (KJV)

Daniel had just been given a time-line that goes from the days of Daniel until the resurrection of the dead. so the question "How long until an end of these wonders?" The "Wonders" can't be the whole vision as taking place within a "time, times and a half" but only a section of it. Well, I guess a person could believe the "Wonders" are the whole vision, but I don't. The rest of what was said by the angel seems to indicater the wonders are the time that the Holy City and fortress of the Mount are under the rule of this foriegn force. So to me, the time, times, and half is the time the Jews are not in the land or in control over Jerusalem.


and when he (the Last king of the North) shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these [things] shall be finished.

We know from Ezekiel 38 that God will return the Jews to Israel from the nations back into the land. He also returns them to Jerusalem as rulers of their own land and the Holy City. So we know there is a break in the time between when the 7th head ruled as kings of the north over Israel and the 8th head (last king of the North starting with vs 40) goes out to conquer (an 8th that was one of the seven) We are told that the end will not come until the power of the Jews (over the city and mount) is "broken" (once again). To me this means when the 8th head (The last king of the north, to me, Gog) finishes breaking the power of the Holy People (who were brought out of the nations and restored to the Holy City). Then the Lord will bring about the resurrection of the dead towards the end of that war, and will destroy the last king of the North and his armies, and finish all these things.
The last king of the North wouldn't have to conquer Israel (the beautiful land) again if the King of the North before him hadn't lost power over it.


I feel this is shown more in the next verses.

Dan 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what [shall be] the end of these [things]?

Dan 12:11 And from the time [that] the daily [sacrifice] shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, [there shall be] a thousand two hundred and ninety days. :12 Blessed [is] he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

I believe this obvious break at the end of the 1290 days is when the Jews are brought back out of the nations. Then the continuing of 45 more days until Jerusalem is also given back to the Jews by the will of God. I believe this is also the end of the time, times and half time. But the end of the age will not come until the power of the Jews is broken by Gog during that war. Gog being the king of the North beginning in verse 40 of this prophecy. Then the end shall come with the return of the Lord to do battle with Gog for the sake of the inhabitance of the city.

In Him
Norma

El Gallo,

Yeah it is a mystery, but don't you think we should be able to put some meaning on it? But yeah, that does make sense, that Jesus could be winnowing out the wheat from the tares during that time. One thing that's struck me lately though, for those of us who are pre-millennial, is that the gog/magog war resurfaces again after the thousand year reign. Meaning that even when Christ assumes his reign for a thousand years, there will still be unbelievers. To me that's the only way this is explained:

Revelation 20:7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Norma, Daniel is told in chapter 8 repeatedly that the vision is of the time of the end:

7 As he came near the place where I was standing, I was terrified and fell prostrate. "Son of man," he said to me, "understand that the vision concerns the time of the end."

and here:

19 He said: "I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath, because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end.

To me this is the time of the bowl judgments in Revelation. And finally:

23 "In the latter part of their reign, when rebels have become completely wicked, a stern-faced king, a master of intrigue, will arise. 24 He will become very strong, but not by his own power. He will cause astounding devastation and will succeed in whatever he does. He will destroy the mighty men and the holy people. 25 He will cause deceit to prosper, and he will consider himself superior. When they feel secure, he will destroy many and take his stand against the Prince of princes. Yet he will be destroyed, but not by human power.

Well we all know who the Prince of Princes is.

The thing is.....these numbers of 1290 and 1335 are unique unto themselves. If the two witnesses had been given 1290 days or the beast, then the connection could be made. But to say that the extra 30 days and 45 days can be added here or there, just doesn't work for me. If they were part of the last days Jesus would have spoke of them IHMO.

And the time, times and half time that is in Rev 12 is part of a time line (that clearly continues to the end of chap 14) making this mention of the "time, times and half time" at that particualar place within the time line, it can only be the time the people of Israel are in the nations and the beast has taken her place in Jerusalem.

If you don't see the time in chap 12-14 then you of course will not understand what I am saying.

In Him
Norma

Norma,

I understand what you're trying to say, but to me the time of the end is exactly that. And in Daniel 12 it starts with the resurrection:

1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. 4 But you, Daniel, close up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge."

Again he talks about the time of the end. I find it impossible to equate 70 ad as being the time of the end. If we use days as days, and see what happened in 70 ad this doesn't make sense:

11 "From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.

Because the daily sacrifice was abolished when the abomination of desolation was set up by Titus. And this can't refer to Antiochus, or Jesus would have been reverse-prophesying in Matthew 24. Even if we use your day=year theory, we would get this: 70 ad, the time the sacrifice is abolished + 1290= 1360 ad. Add another 45 years and it's 1405. Nothing of consequence happened in those years that I'm aware of.

There is our difference. I don't connect the Dan 9 abomination to the Dan 11:31 abomination. One is the total destruction of the Temple and city and 11:31 is only the desecration of the city and the fortress of the temple Mount. So because they are completely different I can't logically connect them as one event.

In Him
Norma

I see the abominations as all the same one, different aspects of the same event. I don't see the abomination of Daniel 9 as happening when the city and temple are destroyed:

25 "Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing.

The decree until Christ came. Then the prophecy describes the temple and city destruction.

The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.

This happened in 70 ad. The people of "the ruler who will come" did destroy the city. The people were Roman soldiers, but of Syrian descent. Then it goes on to discuss events after the destruction of the temple, more specifically "the ruler who will come".

The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.

Well Christ did confirm a covenant with all believers, but by this time he has already died for our sins. Also, this part of the prophecy does not mention the destruction of the temple, simply it's defilement, and this is already after the destruction of the temple and the city. So who is this making a covenant with many for one seven? Titus did no such thing, so it is a future "ruler who will come" who must fulfill this prophecy.

But here we are going around and around again and that's not the purpose of this post...

Socks,

I also see the abominations as all being at the same time.

Socks.

Oh well, I have nothing to gain if you believed me and nothing to lose if you don't. Hopefully the thread will go back to only those things you want to hear.

God bless
In Him
Norma

Socks,

You know, I just love it when people have snide comments when you do not agree with them. Some witness for Jesus, huh?

Hi Norma,

The vision of the little horn on the goat belongs to the Grecian empire and the king of the North called Antiochus IV.

No it doesn't Norma. Daniel is told clearly the vision is for the time of the end. In what manner was the time of Antiochus considered the time of the "end".

Daniel 8

15 And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.

16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.

17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

Gabriel is sent to explain the vision to Daniel. The very first thing he says about the vision is that it is for the time of the end. The vision is about the little horn thus the little horn is time stamped at the "end" whenever that is. Now here is the rest the interpretation we are given by Gabriel.

19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

Again in verse 19 it is abundantly clear that the time of the end is being spoken of. Gabriel will make Daniel know what will be in the last of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be. You are simply incorrect in stating this vision is not for the "end". I understand that if you admitted it was for the end you would have to change your view which obviously you are unwilling to consider no matter how far away from scripture your statements are shown to be.

Peace,
Seeker

Hopefully the thread will go back to only those things you want to hear.

Norma, hopefully this thread will go back to only those things that don't take scripture out of context and are not made up by someone's flights of fantasy.

Norma, hopefully this thread will go back to only those things that don't take scripture out of context and are not made up by someone's flights of fantasy.

Really

Let me put your flight of fantasy into perspective for you.

I come to you and say....Son, you have 7 minutes to finish that task or you will not be living in this house anymore.

After 6 minutes I return and say. You did not finish your task! Now get out of my house!

But, Mother, the 7 minutes aren't up yet!

It doesn't mater! I know you, and you wouldn't have completed it in 7 minutes anyway. Now Get out!

And the worst part is that, as your mother, I also knew that in the first 6 minutes nothing you could do would allow you to complete the task. The information you would need to complete the task would come after the 6th minute ended...in 7th minute.


What kind of mother am I?


Because that is what you believe God did.


That is how you read the scriptures of Daniel 9 prophecy. It just hasn't dawned on you yet.



In Him
Norma

Seeker
Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation:

This is what the angel is explaining to Daniel. What is the indignation he is speaking of that will come to an end at the appointed time?

Norma,

You view the 70 weeks completely differently from the way others of us do, like socks and myself. We view the 70 weeks as a timeframe in which God will accomplish His task in the people of Israel, not as a time in which Israel must complete that task themselves. Because they rejected Jesus, their timeframe has been stopped until the time they are ready to recognize Him as Lord, at which point the final week will commence so that the prophecy will be fulfilled.

I also have another question regarding the time, times and half a time. Do you believe this timeframe is the same in Daniel 12, Revelation 12, and Daniel 7?

The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.”
Daniel 12:7

The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent's reach. Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring–those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
Revelation 12:14-17

The ten horns are ten kings who will come from this kingdom. After them another king will arise, different from the earlier ones; he will subdue three kings. He will speak against the Most High and oppress his saints and try to change the set times and the laws. The saints will be handed over to him for a time, times and half a time. But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be handed over to the saints, the people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.
Daniel 7:24-28

If they are all the same timeframe, it appears to be relating to an end times scenario where God's people (the saints, the holy people, the rest of Israel's offspring: those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus) will be pursued and conquered, broken. God will step in at the last moment to their rescue, our rescue, issue judgment on the little horn, who also appears to be the Beast of the Sea (see Revelation 13:6-7 in comparison to Daniel 7:25), and establish His Kingdom (Daniel 7:13-14, 26-27; the millennial reign?).

If they're not in the same timeframe, then why the similarities in the three passages?

We view the 70 weeks as a timeframe in which God will accomplish His task in the people of Israel, not as a time in which Israel must complete that task themselves.

Because they rejected Jesus, their timeframe has been stopped until the time they are ready to recognize Him as Lord, at which point the final week will commence so that the prophecy will be fulfilled.

So God wasn't able to complete the task for Israel in the timeframe He set for Himself to do it?

It wasn't God's task to MAKE them believe. It was their task to believe within the given timeframe.

We know from scripture the 7th minute (70th week) did take place and the Jews saw Him, and heard Him, and had a choice to make. Jesus said to them that because they did not recognize Him, as they should have...they would find themselves homeless. So the information was given to Israel "in the 7th minute". And they didn't complete the tasks. By accepting Him the tasks would have been made complete through Him.

But you say their timeframe ended at 6 minutes even though God allowed 7? That God knew them and knew they wouldn't recognize His Son, so never gave them a chance?
Now who is going against the scriptures in this case? Jesus was in front of their faces and they certainly had a chance.

As I said...it just hasn't dawned on you yet what you are really saying. Maybe someday it will.... or maybe it won't. The good thing is that God hasn't set a timeframe for our understanding all these scriptures. It is only required that a person recognize His Son died for our sins and accepting Him. The time frame there would be a persons lifetime. Times up when a person dies.

God didn't need to save the 70th week to give them a second chance in the end days. He merely appointed new times for that.

In Him
Norma