joelstrumpet

Okay. I didn't think you would understand what I was trying to get you to do. I thought you agreed the final king was a Muslem but if not, then no..we might as well give up now.

Maybe next time.

In Him
Norma

The final king IS muslim Norma, I thought you of all people understood that. What do you suppose he is if not Islamic?

Yes I believe he and his revived empire will be Muslim....but since you said we can't agree on who the 8th head /empire was I thought maybe you changed your thinking.

At this point I wasn't talking about where, geologically (Istanbul or Turkey or Iraq), it would be lead from, or who the man will be. I was just talking about Dan 11 and how all 4 of Daniel's beasts are potrayed in it.


Maybe we don't agree on who the 4 beasts are?
What empires do you say these were? (and in the case of the 4th empire will rise again in the end days)

Lion=
Bear=
Leopard=
4th beast with 10 horns=

Norma, I think you're trying to elude the point I was making.

When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.

To fit your construct you make it say the opposite of what it does:

when there is an end to the scatter of the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

And it would have to be worded the way you worded it, if the 1335 days is years and it's culmination was in Israel's recapture of Jerusalem, and their power would no longer be scattered. But it is not worded that way!

Our God is not one of delusion and deception, let's leave that to the muslims. Do you think God would say something through his angel, and mean the exact opposite of what was said? That's more reminiscent of the "angel" jibreel talking to maphomet.

No, not eluding. Just trying to point out that if the Media- persian kings that the angel started this time-line prophecy with are kings of the bear beast and the Greecian kings listed in this prophecy are the leopard beast of the Grecian empire.
Then why do you leave out The Islamic empire which was a beast over thirteen hundred years, and say that only the revived Islamic empire under the last king of the North is listed in the time line. In otherwords the last 3 1/2 years begin in verse 31 and continue thru 44?

You know the 4th beast destroyed and crushed and devoured even BEFORE the 11th horn came up.

That old Islamic empire was the 7th head on the beast as seen in the book of Revelation so why do people leave it out of the time-line of Daniel and just go straight from the Grecian kings to the last king of the revived Islamic empire or 8th head?

Norma,
By refusing to answer my question that shows you at least acknowledge that there's a problem with your theory. But like you said before, there are many interpretations of prophecy so I sez live and let live.

To me it's like trying to put a square block into a round hole. God knows the beginning to the end, and he worded the entire bible to suit his will. I just don't see the sense in rewriting it to suit a particular construct. I know this is why we've had heated debates in the past, which I'm sure you'll agree has no point to it. In my opinion, if God says how some things will come to pass it will be exactly as he says. Not almost, not sorta, not pretty near, not a little bit of shuffling of the words, it will happen exactly as he says.

Hi Norma,

You know the 4th beast destroyed

I kind of forgot who you think the 4th beast is or was Norma. The 4th beast has not existed yet according to scripture.

Dan 7:19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
Dan 7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

The 4th beast has 10 kings as part of it. Which kingdom ruled with 10 kings? ...of the ten horns that were in his head....The ten horns are physically part of the 4th beast's head. Part of the definition of the 4th beast is that it has 10 horns/kings. If the 4th beast has existed then so have the 10 kings. Can you refresh my memory as to how you interpret the ten kings?

Thanks,
Seeker

I kind of forgot who you think the 4th beast is or was Norma. The 4th beast has not existed yet according to scripture.

Hi Seeker

So you aren't expecting a revived empire, but the fourth beast to come into power for the first time as an empire in our future, followed by a second rise to power even further into the future?

I believe the 4th beast was the Islamic Empire and will rise again as a revived Islamic empire. In other words the 7th head on the beast of revelation. When it rises to power again it will be as the 8th, which was one of the 7 rising to power again (antichrsit beast).

When the Ottoman empire was defeated then the Middle east had ten provinces which were made into kingdoms. But three of the ten were made into one kingdom and named Iraq.



Socks
I told you that how one interprets those verses has to do who they think the king of the North is that sets up the Abomination verse 11:31. So I am answering the original statement I made. I say the ones who set up that abomination was the Islamic Empire the first time it was an empire. I am asking who you think it is. And if you think it is the revived Islamic empire of the future that sets it up....then why do you skip the first time they came to power and go straight from the Grecian kings to the revived empire of the last days, skipping the first time they were an empire in these verses?

If the Lord says the 8th head is one of the 7 but if the Islamic empire isn't one of those 7 heads then how can it be the 8th head.

all of the 7 heads are the same 7 heads as on the 4 beast. Babylon 1 head. Media Persia's 1 head, Greece with it's 4 heads and the last beast with it's one head...that's seven. In revelation it says that their will be an 8th, but it is just one of the 7 coming back into power.

All but the first head (Babylon) is shown by their explotes in the time-line vision of Daniel 11. But you are leaving the 7th head out of the time-line. Going staight from Greece to the 8th head.

So like you said...to each his/her own.

In Him
Norma

Hi Norma,

When the Ottoman empire was defeated then the Middle east had ten provinces which were made into kingdoms. But three of the ten were made into one kingdom and named Iraq.

The problem with that Norma is this.

Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

The 10 kings which are part of the 4th kingdom only receive power as kings for one hour with the beast. They exist in the same timeframe as does the beast. So are you then implying that there will be 10 more kings besides the 10 of the old Ottoman?

Peace,
Seeker

Notice the word kingdom is not plurl. They recieve the kingdom/empire when the beast comes out of the bottomless pit. They are part of the 8th head kingdom. Before this they are seprate kingdom's. notice they have there crowns in Rev 13. Each having it's own kingdom but not joined as an empire.


So how about you answer my question about both the empire and then it's revived rise to power both being future to you.

In Him
Norma

Norma, k, I'll try this one more time

When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.

How was the holy people's power finally broken by Israel taking control of Jerusalem in 1967?


The only way this makes sense is if the Palestinians/Philistines are the holy people. Is that what you think?

Socks

These verses in Daniel can be interpreted more than one way.

Yes I do believe that the Times, time and half time ended in 1967 when the Jews took Jerusalem. "The end of these wonders".

And when the hand of the Holy people is completely shattered it will be an end to all these things. (The whole prophecy).

Is that better?

In Him
Norma

Hi Norma,

Notice the word kingdom is not plurl. They recieve the kingdom/empire when the beast comes out of the bottomless pit. They are part of the 8th head kingdom. Before this they are seprate kingdom's. notice they have there crowns in Rev 13. Each having it's own kingdom but not joined as an empire.

Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

The ten horns are ten kings (plural) and they receive power as "kings" (plural) one hour with the beast. They are part of the 8th kingdom but only for one hour, however long that is. But they are still said to be kings so maintain their sovereignty over their individual nations. The beast nation and 10 other nations form an alliance of sorts. Every OT account of the invasion of Israel has a multiple of individual nations aligned together. Scripture supports a multitude of specific nations involved in Armageddon. The names of them are scattered throughout the OT. The entire middle east is pretty much set aside for God's wrath and fire.

So you aren't expecting a revived empire, but the fourth beast to come into power for the first time as an empire in our future, followed by a second rise to power even further into the future?

No, there is only one 4th beast spoken of in the bible. Nowhere does the bible even hint that the 4th empire will exist in two different time frames. For whatever reasons God only told Daniel of 4 out of the multitudes of empires that have existed on earth. The 4th empire has a timestamp that sets its time of existance.

Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

The horn (AC) made war with the saints until the Ancient of days came, and judgement was given to the saints......This horn is said to be part of the 4th beast.

Dan 7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

There were 10 horns in his head and another came up in his head. The head symbolizes the kingdom. All 11 horns are from the same kingdom and timeframe. The "other" horn has an alloted amount of time to overcome the saints and make war with them.

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

After the AC, who is part of the 4th beast because he is one of the heads horns, persecutes the saints for 3 1/2 years; his dominion is taken from him and given to the saints of God. When the saints of God receive the kingdom from the defeated beast it will be an ever lasting kingdom. Or as we know the kingdom of God on Earth. So the horn begins his war on the saints 3 1/2 years before the end of the last 7 years. This places the 4th kingdom in the time span of the last 7 years. The 8th king of Rev 17 is the AC or the same as the horn of Daniel 7:21. We know that in Rev 17 the 10 kings receive power for one hour with the beast/AC/4th beast/8th king/Satan. That's the reality of it basically. The 6th king of Rev 17 was Rome, the 7th was the Ottoman, and we await the 8th which currently appears to be an Islamic confederacy in the beginning stages as we speak.

Peace,
Seeker

The ten horns are ten kings (plural) and they receive power as "kings" (plural) one hour with the beast.

That's my point. They are already kings of kingdoms before they give there power over to the beast.

The word king is a title given to someone that rules over a country or an empire. If they didn't already have kingdoms, as kings, then they would be called Princes.

Once these kings give their power over to the beast from the bottomless pit then he is the king over all of them. That is an empire that will last a short time (one hour).

So I guess we agree on that. But these ten kings of ten countries exisit now. They existed on the beast of chap 13, with crowns. The last time that beast had a ruling head was when it was the Islamic Empire. When that empire was slain that head survived, not as an empire, but as ten seperate kingdoms with ten kings ruling over them. They will be the kings that will give their power over to the beast for a short time. They become the lands of his empire.



They remain as such today (seperate and yet united in their worship of their god...but at some point in the future they will give their authority to the beast out of the pit and become an 8th head, which will be the ruling head over the beast empire in the very end of days.

No, there is only one 4th beast spoken of in the bible. Nowhere does the bible even hint that the 4th empire will exist in two different time frames.

Then the last head wouldn't be a revived empire would it? If we say it is the Islamic empire come back into power to be the 8th head then it was first one of the 7.

The beast crushes and devoures before the 11 horn even comes up.

This places the 4th kingdom in the time span of the last 7 years.

Actually this places the horn, that pulled out three, as the ruler over the 4th beast/empire during the last 3/12 years. The beast existed before the little horn came up and took over.


Daniel's prophecies are the same as the Book of Revelation but Jesus gives more detail. He portrays Daniel's 4 beast all wrapped up into one. That increases our understanding.

So it seems our difference comes from who the 7 heads of the beast were.

Evidential you don't see the 7 heads of the 4 beast of Dan being portrayed in the Book of Revelation by these 7 heads on the beast made up of the same animal/beasts as Daniel's were? Leopard, bear and Lion and a head with ten horns portaying the 4th beast.


Jesus makes it clear that out of one of these empires that prexisted an 8th which is realy one of the 7 would come into power.

5 had fallen in John's time, one was at that time and the 7th was still to come. Well if the 7th hasn't come yet then how can an 8th come?

You have the 7th and the 8th coming at the same time. Really, you do.


In Him
Norma

"How long will it be before these astonishing things are fulfilled?" 7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, "It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed."

All these things. I'm pretty sure that would include the rest of Daniels vision including the resurrection in verses 1-3, and no way did that happen in 1967.

It just doesn't make sense to me to take out the pieces you want to mean certain things and leave out the rest. Lots of different people have done it, but I see no reason to. Who gets the right to choose? I prefer to just let God speak for himself.

Socks

"How long will it be before these astonishing things are fulfilled?" 7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, "It will be for a time, times and half a time.

This ends the wonders/astonishing things

When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed."

This ends "all things in this prophecy.

I am not leaving anything out.

I understand these prophecies to include the Islamic empire (as the 7th head) strating in verse 11:31 and the revived Islamic Empire (as 8th head) beginning at verse 11:40.

That means the abomination, and the desecration of the fortress (the fortress are the walls that used to surround the Temple) on Mount Moriah and the polluting of the Holy City began with the Islamic Empire... not the revived 8th head empire which comes to power in the end days as seen in verse 40.

Since the are the peoples of Dan 11:31 then the times given in Dan 12 apply to them, not to the 8th head.

To me leaving the 7th head kings of the North out of this time-line prophecy causes much confusion in understanding these and the Book of Revelation.

In Him
Norma

Well I guess we read it different then. Shouldn't surprise me at this point

Question: How long will it be until all these things are fulfilled?

Answer: It will be for a time, times and half a time.

Well how will we know when "a time, times and half a time" are over?

When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.

I don't see a need to put a 50 year plus space of time in there. The angel gives us the timing, and tells us the sign of the end.

If this is all past history as you say, who is it that abolishes the daily sacrifice in verse 31? The last time that happened was in AD 70 right?

I find it hard to see the logic in saying that the final 8th head starts in verse 40.

40 "At the time of the end the king of the South will engage him in battle,

It's a continuation of the King of the North from the earlier verses.

Socks

I am not overly stuck on these being the dates for these times in Dan. The Lord uses numbers over and over again when relating to certain things.

When looking at the 7th head as the old Islamic empire and fitting the Dan 11:31 thru 40 text and the times given in Dan 12. Certain times pop out.



It was 1290 years from June 9 until the British mandats giving Israel a homeland in 1922 and another 45 years until they took Jerusalem. It was exactly 1335 years from the June 9, 632 AD that the first Caliph was appointed and he began the war to take Israel first, until June 9, 1967 that the Jews took back Jerusalem.

I believe these are appointed times and not a coincidence. Actual facts of history important not only to the Muslims but also the Jewish nation.

But there is also another way these numbers work in and I am kind of at a wait and see mode.

I also knew about these times back in 1991 but didn't want to take them seriously because I didn't want it to be so long before the Lord's return. But.....

From the time that the abomination of Desolation was set up on the Holy Mount fortress in 691-2 AD, called the Dome of the Rock, and by adding 1290 years it comes to 1982 the year the Jews, via certain groups like the Temple Mount Faithful, etc., began their efforts in hopes of rebuilding the Jewish Temple. Ie. On April 8, 1982 The Temple Mount Faithful group placed a fake bomb and a threatening letter in front of the Aqsa Mosque door. April 11, 1982 An Israeli soldier entered the Dome of the Rock Mosque and started firing shots randomly.

and 45 years later would come to 2026.

Which doesn't sound like it means anything... accept it will have been exactly 2000 years since Jesus baptism when He was publically annointd by God in 26 AD and changed the world.

I don't know which times are to fulfill Dan 12.

But what I do know is that the 7th head was the old Islamic Empire and fullfiled the verses in Dan 11:31-40. And it will be from that empire that in the last days a leader will emerge (a king of the North) and begin to unit the Arab countries again. This will causes much fighting among the Arab nations. And yes the king of the South (Egypt) will come against the king of the North (same North area as always in this prophecy) But this new leader will defeat the king of the South and any other Muslim nation that refuse to join him and will then rule over all the Muslim nations untiing them as an empire. He will then enter Israel.

In Him
Norma

What I'm wondering Norma, is who abolished the daily sacrifice 1290 years before Jerusalem was back in control of Israel. There hasn't been a daily sacrifice since 70 ad.

There is a possibility that it means that the Abomination on the Holy Place abolished the right of the Jews to perform the sacrifices. The abomination has taken it's place (worship of another god, allah, on the mount). It is still abolishing their right to perform sacrifices on the mount today. Not that they haven't tried.

But Arab writings say that when Jerusalem was captured by the Caliph that he demanded to be shown the altar where the Jews had been making sacrifices and that he took a stone from that altar and placed at the south end of the mount and built a wooden mosque around it. it is where the Al Aksas mosque is today. That stone is still displayed in the mosque.

But as long as the abomination is on the mount then they never will, until it is removed and the mount restored to the worship of the God of Israel.

In Him
Norma

Well it's easy to see why we are in such disagreement at times

From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished

I'm sure had quite a different meaning to Daniel who had seen the temple and the daily sacrifices. And it does to me too.

Well, things aren't always what they appear to be in our English translations.

Words that mean one thing to us mean something else to the Jews.

For example "the abomination that maketh desolate"

In Matt 24 when Jesus speaks of the this he refers the reader back to Daniel. But the word Jesus uses for desolation means complete destruction. That is refering to the complete destruction of the city and the Temple talked about in Dan 9:26. Which took place in 70 AD.

But it is not a reference to Daniel 11:31 because that is not a reference to an abomination that causes complete destruction.

The word desolation in Dan11:31 is an abomination that causes one to be appalled or horrified. The tense of the word tells the tail.

This abomination would cause the people to be appalled. The tense of the word he used is Polel-participle

c) (Polel) 2) appalling, causing horror (participle)

If he had used a different tense then it could have meant

e) (Hophal) to lay desolate, be desolated

As the word in Matt means.

In Dan 9 it is a complete destruction and in Dan 11 it is the polluting or desecration of the FORTRESS of the sanctuary and of the city.

These verses are speaking of two completely different times in history.

Of course Daniel would have the seen the difference in his two prophecies right away. Did you?

So when you say "A of D" which one do you mean?

In Him
Norma

ummm.......I was referring to abolish the daily sacrifice.

Already answered that.

Thought the perhaps the A of D was the next direction to go in.

In Him
Norma

Already answered that. Smile

Thought the perhaps the A of D was the next direction to go in.

Not in a way that made sense. But I suppose if abolish the daily sacrifice actually means :prevent them from having the ability to start the daily sacrifice, and When the power of the holy people has been finally broken,actually means the exact opposite of what is written: when there is an end to the scatter of the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. Then there is no further discussion, because basically anything can mean anything! Who can make sense of "logic" like that?

hey....good way to avoid what I wrote about the A pf D and avoid my question to you.

The a of d's are all talking about the same thing. We've already been over that a dozen times, I'm not avoiding anything, I just don't feel the urge to rehash that again.

Jesus tells us in Matthew 24:

15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation, spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

He doesn't say "when you see the multiple abominations of desolations" does he? Then he goes on to talk about the resurrection in verse 30. The very same resurrection that Daniel wrote about in chapter 12. Well when did the resurrection happen? In AD 70 or 1967?

Norma, if you can take the scripture and twist the words around so it has an entirely opposite meaning, and that makes sense to you, then what's the point? You already know how I feel about the bible being the inspired and inerrant word of God. That means that all of it is right. Every single word.

You think because someone doesn't agree with you that they are not taking the bible as the inspired and inerrant word of God.

You really believe that the Jews only had one time there was a abomination on the Holy Mount? And every time it is mentioned it is speaking of the same event. Boy, do you have an awakening coming.

oh, well, no sense talking about these things with you.

Have a good day
In Him
Norma

No Norma, it's not like that at all. The problem I have is when people change the wording to fit their perspective and it changes the entire meaning of the text. I've looked into other religions, cults, etc. Some of them don't even have to change a whole sentence, just one word. This is one of my all time favorite passages in the bible.

John 1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

The Jehovah's Witnesses say it should be different, they add an “a”.

John 1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2He was with God in the beginning.
3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

Not only does it totally diminish the rest of the passage, but it changes the entire meaning of salvation by grace alone. One can earn their way to be where Christ is. They make Christ into a created being, and therefore not the creator, denying one of the first tenants of the Christian faith, that Jesus Christ is God! If he is not God, then we are dead in our sins. We might as well be practicing the laws of the Torah and hope that we might have a chance (in hell,) of earning our way to heaven. No pun intended, works based religions are impossible, they seem to have a very small view of what sin is, and no concept at all of original sin.

Psalm 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

We could not even begin to hope to work out our salvation by works.
It's not very original, the first heresies and even to this day deny the divinity of Jesus. That's why the gnostic gospels were in Arabia and found their way to Muhammad. That's satan's ultimate goal, to deceive people into believing that our Lord and savior, is not God.

I hope you can see my point. I'm not willing to concede one single word to the JW's, not even an insignificant little "a". So when you turn the words around and alter the meaning of a whole verse It doesn't sit right with me. Do you agree that John 1:1 should not be altered? What parts of the bible are ok to alter? Not a single part if you ask me.

You really believe that the Jews only had one time there was a abomination on the Holy Mount? And every time it is mentioned it is speaking of the same event. Boy, do you have an awakening coming.

No, I don't believe that we've seen the Abomination of Desolation yet. Prophecy often has archetypes or foreshadowing of future events by minor (and not complete) fulfillments, that's all we've seen so far in history. We know we haven't seen the true A of D because Jesus himself told us in Matthew 24 that when we do see it, his second coming follows right after it.

And I aint yer boy either.